6 ms·

“Follow the Science” Is a Cop-Out

the_dune_13 6y ago
"The “science” that politicians have claimed to follow rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses, assembling data, and asking new questions in an effort to teeter toward the truth. It is rather a void at the center of technocratic politics into which leaders cast their responsibility." What would author suggest in March last year? What would be a better option?
- reese_john 6y ago
  > What would author suggest in March last year? What would be a better option? The technocratic apparatus might have been deployed toward a strategy of creative mitigation — say, mass manufacturing of N95 masks, test kits mailed to every American, testing at a large-enough scale to isolate only the actually infected instead of everyone. Instead, our leaders decided to indefinitely maintain crippling restrictions on individuals, schools, businesses, and social gatherings and take a Hail Mary pass at a vaccine, a gamble that paid off faster than we could have hoped and slower than we could bear.
  - akhilcacharya 6y ago
    The post office wanted to send everyone masks, but this was nixed by the admin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-the-scrapped-usps-announcement-to-send-5-masks-to-every-american-household/39cd11c9-3e38-4d8a-9d70-7c3215ab9cf8/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-the-scrapped-usp...
    - masonic 6y ago
      The USPS had the transportation infrastructure to do this... but it had no PPE inventory to distribute. The previous administration had done nothing to maintain or replace the ample PPE inventory that the preceding administration had left it (in thoughtful response to SARS and H5N1).
  - carlivar 6y ago
    America should have done the South Korea playbook. Technology based, aggressive testing and contact tracing via an intense public-private partnership.
    - yokaze 6y ago
      That was only theoretically possible. After the avian flu outbreak, South Korea had implemented and trained the system you have observed. Just the year before they did an exercise on a hypothetical coronavirus outbreak. So, the US could not catch up years of preparation in matter of weeks.
  - bob_roberts 6y ago
    > our leaders In the United States at least, that's a bit of a cop out. Lockdowns were applied at the local level and were originally meant to buy time and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The Federal government could have then stepped in with mass manufacturing of masks and wide-scale testing. But Trump was reluctant to use the Defense Production Act, and Jared Kushner was put in charge of coordinating PPE supplies, and we saw how that worked out.
    - barney54 6y ago
      Trump did use the Defense Production Act for ventilators. But ventilators didn’t turn out to be effective.
      - bob_roberts 6y ago
        True - but arguably Trump was too slow to invoke it and it wasn't broad enough. And states had to bid against each other to get PPE, only to have the Feds then seize confiscate some of them. My main point was we should have had a coordinated response. Framing it as "leaders decided to indefinitely maintain crippling restrictions" is misleading. Lockdowns were necessary at the local level because there wasn't a coherent strategy at the national level. (Again, speaking only of the U.S.)
  - the_dune_13 6y ago
    "mass manufacturing of N95 masks" How? The shortage in March was one of the reasons why they did not recommend masks. Besides, the point made was tailored toward the negative attitude towards science in emarging crisis scenario - "The “science” [..] rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses" Did we have any superior alternatives?
    - dTal 6y ago
      Any mask recommendation would have been an improvement, while production ramped up. The knowing bait-and-switch of "masks don't work" for the cynical reason of preserving supplies destroyed many people's trust in the integrity of the apparatus. And now, we're a year in and still we don't have actual N95 filtering masks everywhere. Most people are still wearing cloth.
      - Exmoor 6y ago
        And I have yet to see anyone in the US government recommend an actual filtering mask, which somewhat boggles my mind. Real FDA-approved KN95 masks have been available fairly cheaply for 6+ months, although ensuring you're not getting counterfeits can be an issue. I switched several months ago and couldn't believe how much better they were. It was obvious that air was actually going through the mask rather than around the sides and I had fewer issues with my glasses fogging and humidity buildup. Add to that the fact that it's actually filtering out 95% of any harmful particles and it's a no-brainer.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Erring on the side of caution was always an option. Advising people to wear masks early on instead of insisting that hand washing is the only thing necessary could have helped. Also encouraging exercise to mitigate the effects of the virus in case you do get it is something we still haven’t risen to.
  - kwertyoowiyop 6y ago
    Given the reaction when Michelle Obama suggested kids eat more vegetables, you can only guess how many heads would explode if EXERCISE was mentioned!
    - ketamine__ 6y ago
      Fauci has mentioned eating a healthy diet. But most people consider their diets healthy so that doesn't help. Anyway, this was obviously a point glossed over by the pro maskers.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - donovanian 6y ago
        Fauci is a mess honestly. He's been all over the map and revealed he's in the business of noble lies in the interest of policy objectives - which only backfires and erodes public trust. Were the establishment smart, they'd have no problem with vaccination hesitancy by saying that after vaccination you can resume normal life and ditch the masks. Instead it's been the outrageous message of "nothing will change." You only have to see how the establishment has handled the obesity epidemic in the US to see whether any of their supposed intelligence and expertise accomplishes anything.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Ventilation and filtration are more important than either of those efforts because they require zero compliance from the public. No one walks into Walmart and demands the blower fans on the air filter be turned off.
akhilcacharya 6y ago
It's strange to me that several references to Jackson, Adams, and DeBlasio's non response during the start of 2020 aren't paired with a similarly withering criticism of the then-chief executive who didn't even encourage mask wearing and pushed reopenings that we know are dangerous for aerosol spread, namely full capacity indoors restaurants and bars. I don't dispute some restrictions are silly - closing playgrounds outside comes to mind, but they were reopened in my city once it became clear aerosol spread maskless indoors is far more dangerous than fomite transmission or masked aersosol transmission outdoors. Ultimately that is following the science.
- WalterGR 6y ago
  It's strange to me... Not that strange. This is an article in an anti-science publication written by the editor of a right-wing paper. The author intentionally focuses on federalism to avoid pointing any blame toward the chief executive you mentioned. It’s not an intellectually honest piece.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
convery 6y ago
Indeed, people (especially politicians) seem really afraid to simply say "we don't know". Rather appeal to science as an authority that everyone agrees on. Especially when it comes to large topics like climate-change or pandemics, scientists dedicate their lives to learn about a small part; yet somehow all scientists are in agreement on whatever someone posted on social media or what a politician wants to do.
- duxup 6y ago
  I feel like if you paid close attention you heard / understood that this was a new virus and nobody was sure of much.
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
Let's start with following the scientists, rather than following the reporters' priorities and interpretations of the scientists.
PopGreene 6y ago
Makes the argument that politicians dropped the ball. Mentions Cuomo and di Blasio by name, but oddly omits to mention deSantis, Abbott, any other conservative governors, nor the the politician best equipped to address the crisis: Trump.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  Not that Abbot and deSantis done anything particularly smart wrt to COVID, but at the very least they both avoided doing something deadly stupid like sending COVID patients to nursing homes
BoiledCabbage 6y ago
> In January 2020, when the first cases of what would later be dubbed Covid-19 were discovered on American soil, state and city governments were charged with managing the crisis before it was too late. But at precisely the time for acting, when the virus was here but had not yet spread widely, nearly every political institution in America that bore responsibility — including various bureaus of public health — claimed that there wasn’t enough evidence to do anything. And when it was clear that they had waited too long, they denied responsibility and placed the blame elsewhere. This article manages to blame any and every politician from the other party, while somehow not once mentioning the single politician most responsible for ignoring the crisis, the one that set the tone for the entire country and downplayed the risk of the virus even months after it was obvious. The author wants to write an article about how impactful the virus was, how terrible the politicians were and yet tries to find a way to do so, and won't acknowledge the source of the problem? How in the world is this even upvoted on HN? It's pure partisan drivel. Unfortunately I think I'm coming to an understanding of the state of current politics. At this point, it seems clear one party is in consistent denial denial of reality and absolution of any and all responsibility of their party. No the other party isn't innocent, but the disparity is shocking. It began with denying where a president was born, then continued into belief of QAnon conspiracy, denial of covid, and now denial of any responsibility for that denial, next denial of vote results. It's legitimately concerning. The current media landscape plays a large part in this - creating these reality distortion fields and allowing people to remain in them for everything. 20 years ago I could disagree with people on what's most important, what's best to do, prioritization, but we agreed on basic facts. But now any inconvenient fact is just summarily dismissed as false and ignored. This is not sustainable. But there are too many people in positions of power who would lose it if that happened, and too many people that would have to face uncomfortable truths that they were duped. Two things that psychologically and from human nature rarely happen. 30% of the party believes in the core of QAnon. How do you even have a functioning country with that? https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/nearly-30-percent-of-republicans-believe-central-tenet-of-qanon-conspiracy-poll-658992 https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/nearly-30-percent-of...
- jimmygrapes 6y ago
  The media bubble has got to you as well my friend. You are othering huge swaths of society based on inaccurate and incomplete information, and I'd venture that even when presented with additional information that contradicts your assumptions, your opinion wouldn't change.
wisemanwillhear 6y ago
> The “science” that politicians have claimed to follow rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses, assembling data, and asking new questions in an effort to teeter toward the truth. Speaking to this in the broadest context... Even with that I wish we would acknowledge that the science can only give us a certain amount of knowledge. It does not give us the wisdom to know how to make right decisions as that involves evaluating competing values that science cannot address. Ultimately, the values of those in leadership (and to some extent the values of the majority in democracies) dominate the values of other people and can discriminate against (or even oppress) those who are not in power.
ppf 6y ago
"The Science" is the new state-sponsored oppressive religion. The parallels write themselves - only a few are worthy to approach "The Science", and we must trust that their interpretation of the mysterious writings is correct. As well as that, we must obey, for the good of all, or face public ridicule and be shunned as dangerous.

"The “science” that politicians have claimed to follow rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses, assembling data, and asking new questions in an effort to teeter toward the truth. It is rather a void at the center of technocratic politics into which leaders cast their responsibility." What would author suggest in March last year? What would be a better option?

reese_john 6y ago
> What would author suggest in March last year? What would be a better option? The technocratic apparatus might have been deployed toward a strategy of creative mitigation — say, mass manufacturing of N95 masks, test kits mailed to every American, testing at a large-enough scale to isolate only the actually infected instead of everyone. Instead, our leaders decided to indefinitely maintain crippling restrictions on individuals, schools, businesses, and social gatherings and take a Hail Mary pass at a vaccine, a gamble that paid off faster than we could have hoped and slower than we could bear.
- akhilcacharya 6y ago
  The post office wanted to send everyone masks, but this was nixed by the admin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-the-scrapped-usps-announcement-to-send-5-masks-to-every-american-household/39cd11c9-3e38-4d8a-9d70-7c3215ab9cf8/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-the-scrapped-usp...
  - masonic 6y ago
    The USPS had the transportation infrastructure to do this... but it had no PPE inventory to distribute. The previous administration had done nothing to maintain or replace the ample PPE inventory that the preceding administration had left it (in thoughtful response to SARS and H5N1).
- carlivar 6y ago
  America should have done the South Korea playbook. Technology based, aggressive testing and contact tracing via an intense public-private partnership.
  - yokaze 6y ago
    That was only theoretically possible. After the avian flu outbreak, South Korea had implemented and trained the system you have observed. Just the year before they did an exercise on a hypothetical coronavirus outbreak. So, the US could not catch up years of preparation in matter of weeks.
- bob_roberts 6y ago
  > our leaders In the United States at least, that's a bit of a cop out. Lockdowns were applied at the local level and were originally meant to buy time and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The Federal government could have then stepped in with mass manufacturing of masks and wide-scale testing. But Trump was reluctant to use the Defense Production Act, and Jared Kushner was put in charge of coordinating PPE supplies, and we saw how that worked out.
  - barney54 6y ago
    Trump did use the Defense Production Act for ventilators. But ventilators didn’t turn out to be effective.
    - bob_roberts 6y ago
      True - but arguably Trump was too slow to invoke it and it wasn't broad enough. And states had to bid against each other to get PPE, only to have the Feds then seize confiscate some of them. My main point was we should have had a coordinated response. Framing it as "leaders decided to indefinitely maintain crippling restrictions" is misleading. Lockdowns were necessary at the local level because there wasn't a coherent strategy at the national level. (Again, speaking only of the U.S.)
- the_dune_13 6y ago
  "mass manufacturing of N95 masks" How? The shortage in March was one of the reasons why they did not recommend masks. Besides, the point made was tailored toward the negative attitude towards science in emarging crisis scenario - "The “science” [..] rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses" Did we have any superior alternatives?
  - dTal 6y ago
    Any mask recommendation would have been an improvement, while production ramped up. The knowing bait-and-switch of "masks don't work" for the cynical reason of preserving supplies destroyed many people's trust in the integrity of the apparatus. And now, we're a year in and still we don't have actual N95 filtering masks everywhere. Most people are still wearing cloth.
    - Exmoor 6y ago
      And I have yet to see anyone in the US government recommend an actual filtering mask, which somewhat boggles my mind. Real FDA-approved KN95 masks have been available fairly cheaply for 6+ months, although ensuring you're not getting counterfeits can be an issue. I switched several months ago and couldn't believe how much better they were. It was obvious that air was actually going through the mask rather than around the sides and I had fewer issues with my glasses fogging and humidity buildup. Add to that the fact that it's actually filtering out 95% of any harmful particles and it's a no-brainer.
ironmagma 6y ago
Erring on the side of caution was always an option. Advising people to wear masks early on instead of insisting that hand washing is the only thing necessary could have helped. Also encouraging exercise to mitigate the effects of the virus in case you do get it is something we still haven’t risen to.
- kwertyoowiyop 6y ago
  Given the reaction when Michelle Obama suggested kids eat more vegetables, you can only guess how many heads would explode if EXERCISE was mentioned!
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Fauci has mentioned eating a healthy diet. But most people consider their diets healthy so that doesn't help. Anyway, this was obviously a point glossed over by the pro maskers.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - donovanian 6y ago
      Fauci is a mess honestly. He's been all over the map and revealed he's in the business of noble lies in the interest of policy objectives - which only backfires and erodes public trust. Were the establishment smart, they'd have no problem with vaccination hesitancy by saying that after vaccination you can resume normal life and ditch the masks. Instead it's been the outrageous message of "nothing will change." You only have to see how the establishment has handled the obesity epidemic in the US to see whether any of their supposed intelligence and expertise accomplishes anything.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Ventilation and filtration are more important than either of those efforts because they require zero compliance from the public. No one walks into Walmart and demands the blower fans on the air filter be turned off.

akhilcacharya 6y ago

It's strange to me that several references to Jackson, Adams, and DeBlasio's non response during the start of 2020 aren't paired with a similarly withering criticism of the then-chief executive who didn't even encourage mask wearing and pushed reopenings that we know are dangerous for aerosol spread, namely full capacity indoors restaurants and bars. I don't dispute some restrictions are silly - closing playgrounds outside comes to mind, but they were reopened in my city once it became clear aerosol spread maskless indoors is far more dangerous than fomite transmission or masked aersosol transmission outdoors. Ultimately that is following the science.

WalterGR 6y ago
It's strange to me... Not that strange. This is an article in an anti-science publication written by the editor of a right-wing paper. The author intentionally focuses on federalism to avoid pointing any blame toward the chief executive you mentioned. It’s not an intellectually honest piece.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

convery 6y ago

Indeed, people (especially politicians) seem really afraid to simply say "we don't know". Rather appeal to science as an authority that everyone agrees on. Especially when it comes to large topics like climate-change or pandemics, scientists dedicate their lives to learn about a small part; yet somehow all scientists are in agreement on whatever someone posted on social media or what a politician wants to do.

duxup 6y ago
I feel like if you paid close attention you heard / understood that this was a new virus and nobody was sure of much.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

Let's start with following the scientists, rather than following the reporters' priorities and interpretations of the scientists.

PopGreene 6y ago

Makes the argument that politicians dropped the ball. Mentions Cuomo and di Blasio by name, but oddly omits to mention deSantis, Abbott, any other conservative governors, nor the the politician best equipped to address the crisis: Trump.

AzzieElbab 6y ago
Not that Abbot and deSantis done anything particularly smart wrt to COVID, but at the very least they both avoided doing something deadly stupid like sending COVID patients to nursing homes

BoiledCabbage 6y ago

> In January 2020, when the first cases of what would later be dubbed Covid-19 were discovered on American soil, state and city governments were charged with managing the crisis before it was too late. But at precisely the time for acting, when the virus was here but had not yet spread widely, nearly every political institution in America that bore responsibility — including various bureaus of public health — claimed that there wasn’t enough evidence to do anything. And when it was clear that they had waited too long, they denied responsibility and placed the blame elsewhere. This article manages to blame any and every politician from the other party, while somehow not once mentioning the single politician most responsible for ignoring the crisis, the one that set the tone for the entire country and downplayed the risk of the virus even months after it was obvious. The author wants to write an article about how impactful the virus was, how terrible the politicians were and yet tries to find a way to do so, and won't acknowledge the source of the problem? How in the world is this even upvoted on HN? It's pure partisan drivel. Unfortunately I think I'm coming to an understanding of the state of current politics. At this point, it seems clear one party is in consistent denial denial of reality and absolution of any and all responsibility of their party. No the other party isn't innocent, but the disparity is shocking. It began with denying where a president was born, then continued into belief of QAnon conspiracy, denial of covid, and now denial of any responsibility for that denial, next denial of vote results. It's legitimately concerning. The current media landscape plays a large part in this - creating these reality distortion fields and allowing people to remain in them for everything. 20 years ago I could disagree with people on what's most important, what's best to do, prioritization, but we agreed on basic facts. But now any inconvenient fact is just summarily dismissed as false and ignored. This is not sustainable. But there are too many people in positions of power who would lose it if that happened, and too many people that would have to face uncomfortable truths that they were duped. Two things that psychologically and from human nature rarely happen. 30% of the party believes in the core of QAnon. How do you even have a functioning country with that? https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/nearly-30-percent-of-republicans-believe-central-tenet-of-qanon-conspiracy-poll-658992 https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/nearly-30-percent-of...

jimmygrapes 6y ago
The media bubble has got to you as well my friend. You are othering huge swaths of society based on inaccurate and incomplete information, and I'd venture that even when presented with additional information that contradicts your assumptions, your opinion wouldn't change.

wisemanwillhear 6y ago

> The “science” that politicians have claimed to follow rarely resembles the centuries-old process of making informed guesses, testing hypotheses, assembling data, and asking new questions in an effort to teeter toward the truth. Speaking to this in the broadest context... Even with that I wish we would acknowledge that the science can only give us a certain amount of knowledge. It does not give us the wisdom to know how to make right decisions as that involves evaluating competing values that science cannot address. Ultimately, the values of those in leadership (and to some extent the values of the majority in democracies) dominate the values of other people and can discriminate against (or even oppress) those who are not in power.

ppf 6y ago

"The Science" is the new state-sponsored oppressive religion. The parallels write themselves - only a few are worthy to approach "The Science", and we must trust that their interpretation of the mysterious writings is correct. As well as that, we must obey, for the good of all, or face public ridicule and be shunned as dangerous.