7 ms·

Skylab: The Myth of the Mutiny in Space

147 points by vijayr02 6y ago

vijayr02 6y ago
Personally I found this bit very interesting: > The narrative really took on a life of its own when a New Yorker article in 1976 referred to "a sort of sit-down strike one day about half-way through the mission". > From there the Harvard Business School built a case study on the perils of micromanagement called Strike in Space, which sourced the New Yorker article. Reminded me of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect [0] but at a societal level. I wonder how much of our received wisdom is post facto rationalisation and speculative explanation. Recent events in the world have reminded me of a mediaeval letter from father to son - the gist of it is that the son would be shocked if he knew how poorly the high and the mighty were at taking good decisions - it is only from a distance that power appears to be well exercised. I can't find the specific reference, but would be very grateful if someone from the HN family could chime in :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnesiaEffect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnes...
- webreac 6y ago
  I love it. I will add to my list of favorite quotes. I am also interested by a full reference. thanx
  - vijayr02 6y ago
    Thanks :) I think a more earthy way to express it is: politics is like a sausage factory; if you knew how the sausages were made, you wouldn't eat them!
    - KineticLensman 6y ago
      Which IIRC was said by Bismarck, the chancellor of Prussia
      - genocidicbunny 6y ago
        Wikiquote actually seems to indicate that this is mis-attributed to him [0] and that it was said by John Godfrey Saxe first. [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck
        garmaine 6y ago
        ...which is a perfect example of the effect in question.
- cesis 6y ago
  Are you thinking of Machiavelli?
  - vijayr02 6y ago
    I don't think so. I have a hazy memory that I actuallyb learnt the reference on HN - maybe I'm wrong but the woolly context I have is of a respected prime minister approaching the end of a long career, coaching his son and successor. Unlike Machiavelli, who if I remember correctly actually had a very poor relationship with the ruling family after a brief period of success.
- juhanima 6y ago
  Perhaps this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Oxenstierna#Quotation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Oxenstierna#Quotation Axel Oxenstjärna was the Lord High Chancellor of Sweden during king Gustavus Adolphus II, who fought in the 30-year war. Not exactly medieval, but fits the description otherwise.
  - vijayr02 6y ago
    This is the one! Thanks
  - juhanima 6y ago
    While Gustavus was a brave soldier, he was known to be a bit foolhardy. Besided getting himself killed in the battle of Lützen 1632, the story of the Vasa ship may have been what Oxenstjärna had in mind. Against the advice of his engineers, the king ordered his new flagship to be loaded with so many guns that she capsized and sunk outside of the Stockholm harbour on her maiden voyage only having sailed a short while.
    - ljlolel 6y ago
      Funny, is that the one they made the museum out of?
      - juhanima 6y ago
        Yes, definitely worth checking out. The ship was preserved very well in the oxygen-depleted waters of the Baltic and is almost in a pristine condition. This is very off-topic, but I cannot resist mentioning that when the ship was recovered from the bottom of the sea in 1961, one of the first things discovered from it was a miniature statue of Finnish olympic winner Paavo Nurmi. One of the best pranks by the student association of the Helsinki University of Technology. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/62jm2z/til_in_1961_finnish_studends_placed_20th_century/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/62jm2z/til_i...
  - rudolfwinestock 6y ago
    “An nescis, fili mi, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?” “Do you not know, my son, with how little prudence the world is ruled?” Scandinavian nobility still used Latin commonly in those days.
- ljlolel 6y ago
  Also look up how “Stockholm Syndrome” was made up More swedish examples coincidental
- dingaling 6y ago
  Referencing the alleged Gell-Mann effect is a self-referential example of itself in action. Why would you nod your head and say "oh that sounds authoritive and authentic" when it was an concept invented by a sci-fi author unilatetally using the surname of a friend for more gravitas? There were no studies or published papers about the effect, he literally invented it on his own initiative. If I read an inaccurate article in a paper and then turn the page I don't suddenly 'forget' their lack of accuracy and read the next article uncritically, and I don't know anyone who does.
mongol 6y ago
It is linked from the article but I think the audio interview is a more interesting link, so here it goes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszmsv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszmsv
freethedata 6y ago
The fate of For All Mankind’s Skylab project was a fun twist, and possibly one of the least realistic. Yes, it has some things in common with what it became in their timeline, but would they have done that? No way.
sys_64738 6y ago
Great piece, this is. The inverse relationship between productivity and micromanagent is one that every one should discuss with their boss.
tamaharbor 6y ago
So apparently the mainstream media has not changed much since.
mabbo 6y ago
> "Our mission proved that micromanagement does not work, except where a situation like lift-off or re-entry demands it," says Ed. "Fortunately, that hard lesson got passed on for future space flights and crews." I can think of a few people I've worked for who never learned this.
- geoduck14 6y ago
  It is hard to balance: providing vision and direction but also autonomy amd room for growth. As a manager, I get nervous: did I give my direct too much free-space and he/she did stuff that wasn't necessary? Will they resent me from wasting their time? Will they hate their job if they don't develop meaningful skills? Each member of my team has GREAT capabilities. I want what's best for them. I sometimes get so EXCITED about what they are doing or capable of doing - I forgwt to stop "sticking my nose" in their work.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    Different personalities require different management styles. Personally I love having a manager that takes care of all my priority setting and frequently chases me for status updates. I struggle with those things, them doing this helps me focus on what I'm good at. Other personalities do not respond well to this lack of space. Neither of what I. Describing is micromanagement but I hate when people trope that they give their reports as much space as possible. That's a good way to waste my potential.
  - sfg 6y ago
    Ask.
valuearb 6y ago
This story seems to have changed over time. It’s been separately reported that the crew was so fed up they took the day off without permission, and that was the only thing that jolted mission control into agreeing to backing off the micromanagement. Also supposedly Jerry Carr was sidelined by NASA as punishment for leading the “mutiny” and never given an opportunity to fly the Shuttle. NASA PR, as always, has their own spin on it. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/the-real-story-of-the-skylab-4-strike-in-space https://www.nasa.gov/feature/the-real-story-of-the-skylab-4-...
h2odragon 6y ago
> Amazingly, he says, in the last 48 years only one other reporter has been in touch with the Skylab 4 crew apart from the BBC, to ask them for their account of what happened. sigh
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Image legend: >>Nasa staff at mission control discussing a problem with Skylab Including a gentleman who appears to be a rehabilitated space pirate. How cool.
ajarmst 6y ago
I’ve always disliked the tendency to describe this otherwise amusing anecdote as a ‘strike’ or ‘mutiny.’ By definition, the captain of a ship—-or commander of a mission—-can’t ‘mutiny.’ They may be held responsible for their actions, court martialed, grounded, etc. but decisions made by the commander during the mission, whatever they are^1, are legitimate. That the mission commander aboard the ship would function as a military commander was established very early in NASA’s history—-going back to Mercury, where the commander was also the crew. Carr decided or agreed that his crew needed a break, and he had been very carefully selected to be the person who had the authority to make that decision. (^1 There is a modern exception to this rule in the case of illegal orders and war crimes, but that somewhat fraught question doesn’t apply here.)
- JdeBP 6y ago
  You might enjoy the previous discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18776068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18776068 .

147 points by vijayr02 6y ago

Personally I found this bit very interesting: > The narrative really took on a life of its own when a New Yorker article in 1976 referred to "a sort of sit-down strike one day about half-way through the mission". > From there the Harvard Business School built a case study on the perils of micromanagement called Strike in Space, which sourced the New Yorker article. Reminded me of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect [0] but at a societal level. I wonder how much of our received wisdom is post facto rationalisation and speculative explanation. Recent events in the world have reminded me of a mediaeval letter from father to son - the gist of it is that the son would be shocked if he knew how poorly the high and the mighty were at taking good decisions - it is only from a distance that power appears to be well exercised. I can't find the specific reference, but would be very grateful if someone from the HN family could chime in :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnesiaEffect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnes...

webreac 6y ago
I love it. I will add to my list of favorite quotes. I am also interested by a full reference. thanx
- vijayr02 6y ago
  Thanks :) I think a more earthy way to express it is: politics is like a sausage factory; if you knew how the sausages were made, you wouldn't eat them!
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    Which IIRC was said by Bismarck, the chancellor of Prussia
    - genocidicbunny 6y ago
      Wikiquote actually seems to indicate that this is mis-attributed to him [0] and that it was said by John Godfrey Saxe first. [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck
      - garmaine 6y ago
        ...which is a perfect example of the effect in question.
cesis 6y ago
Are you thinking of Machiavelli?
- vijayr02 6y ago
  I don't think so. I have a hazy memory that I actuallyb learnt the reference on HN - maybe I'm wrong but the woolly context I have is of a respected prime minister approaching the end of a long career, coaching his son and successor. Unlike Machiavelli, who if I remember correctly actually had a very poor relationship with the ruling family after a brief period of success.
juhanima 6y ago
Perhaps this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Oxenstierna#Quotation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Oxenstierna#Quotation Axel Oxenstjärna was the Lord High Chancellor of Sweden during king Gustavus Adolphus II, who fought in the 30-year war. Not exactly medieval, but fits the description otherwise.
- vijayr02 6y ago
  This is the one! Thanks
- juhanima 6y ago
  While Gustavus was a brave soldier, he was known to be a bit foolhardy. Besided getting himself killed in the battle of Lützen 1632, the story of the Vasa ship may have been what Oxenstjärna had in mind. Against the advice of his engineers, the king ordered his new flagship to be loaded with so many guns that she capsized and sunk outside of the Stockholm harbour on her maiden voyage only having sailed a short while.
  - ljlolel 6y ago
    Funny, is that the one they made the museum out of?
    - juhanima 6y ago
      Yes, definitely worth checking out. The ship was preserved very well in the oxygen-depleted waters of the Baltic and is almost in a pristine condition. This is very off-topic, but I cannot resist mentioning that when the ship was recovered from the bottom of the sea in 1961, one of the first things discovered from it was a miniature statue of Finnish olympic winner Paavo Nurmi. One of the best pranks by the student association of the Helsinki University of Technology. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/62jm2z/til_in_1961_finnish_studends_placed_20th_century/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/62jm2z/til_i...
- rudolfwinestock 6y ago
  “An nescis, fili mi, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?” “Do you not know, my son, with how little prudence the world is ruled?” Scandinavian nobility still used Latin commonly in those days.
ljlolel 6y ago
Also look up how “Stockholm Syndrome” was made up More swedish examples coincidental
dingaling 6y ago
Referencing the alleged Gell-Mann effect is a self-referential example of itself in action. Why would you nod your head and say "oh that sounds authoritive and authentic" when it was an concept invented by a sci-fi author unilatetally using the surname of a friend for more gravitas? There were no studies or published papers about the effect, he literally invented it on his own initiative. If I read an inaccurate article in a paper and then turn the page I don't suddenly 'forget' their lack of accuracy and read the next article uncritically, and I don't know anyone who does.

mongol 6y ago

It is linked from the article but I think the audio interview is a more interesting link, so here it goes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszmsv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszmsv

freethedata 6y ago

The fate of For All Mankind’s Skylab project was a fun twist, and possibly one of the least realistic. Yes, it has some things in common with what it became in their timeline, but would they have done that? No way.

sys_64738 6y ago

Great piece, this is. The inverse relationship between productivity and micromanagent is one that every one should discuss with their boss.

tamaharbor 6y ago

So apparently the mainstream media has not changed much since.

mabbo 6y ago

> "Our mission proved that micromanagement does not work, except where a situation like lift-off or re-entry demands it," says Ed. "Fortunately, that hard lesson got passed on for future space flights and crews." I can think of a few people I've worked for who never learned this.

geoduck14 6y ago
It is hard to balance: providing vision and direction but also autonomy amd room for growth. As a manager, I get nervous: did I give my direct too much free-space and he/she did stuff that wasn't necessary? Will they resent me from wasting their time? Will they hate their job if they don't develop meaningful skills? Each member of my team has GREAT capabilities. I want what's best for them. I sometimes get so EXCITED about what they are doing or capable of doing - I forgwt to stop "sticking my nose" in their work.
- waheoo 6y ago
  Different personalities require different management styles. Personally I love having a manager that takes care of all my priority setting and frequently chases me for status updates. I struggle with those things, them doing this helps me focus on what I'm good at. Other personalities do not respond well to this lack of space. Neither of what I. Describing is micromanagement but I hate when people trope that they give their reports as much space as possible. That's a good way to waste my potential.
- sfg 6y ago
  Ask.

valuearb 6y ago

This story seems to have changed over time. It’s been separately reported that the crew was so fed up they took the day off without permission, and that was the only thing that jolted mission control into agreeing to backing off the micromanagement. Also supposedly Jerry Carr was sidelined by NASA as punishment for leading the “mutiny” and never given an opportunity to fly the Shuttle. NASA PR, as always, has their own spin on it. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/the-real-story-of-the-skylab-4-strike-in-space https://www.nasa.gov/feature/the-real-story-of-the-skylab-4-...

h2odragon 6y ago

> Amazingly, he says, in the last 48 years only one other reporter has been in touch with the Skylab 4 crew apart from the BBC, to ask them for their account of what happened. sigh

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

Image legend: >>Nasa staff at mission control discussing a problem with Skylab Including a gentleman who appears to be a rehabilitated space pirate. How cool.

ajarmst 6y ago

I’ve always disliked the tendency to describe this otherwise amusing anecdote as a ‘strike’ or ‘mutiny.’ By definition, the captain of a ship—-or commander of a mission—-can’t ‘mutiny.’ They may be held responsible for their actions, court martialed, grounded, etc. but decisions made by the commander during the mission, whatever they are^1, are legitimate. That the mission commander aboard the ship would function as a military commander was established very early in NASA’s history—-going back to Mercury, where the commander was also the crew. Carr decided or agreed that his crew needed a break, and he had been very carefully selected to be the person who had the authority to make that decision. (^1 There is a modern exception to this rule in the case of illegal orders and war crimes, but that somewhat fraught question doesn’t apply here.)

JdeBP 6y ago
You might enjoy the previous discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18776068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18776068 .