6 ms·

I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. Sites abuses this and are always asking on my computer and it’s too easy to accidentally say

I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. Sites abuses this and are always asking on my computer and it’s too easy to accidentally say accept.

heavyset_go 6y ago
> I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. You might not, but our users requested desktop and mobile notifications. The notifications let sick patients know when their prescriptions are ready, facilitate care-provider check ups, etc.
- Google234 6y ago
  Have those users download some simple app if this is so important to them. Or let them enter their phone number to get more reliable text notifications. Just because you have a good use doesn’t outweigh the all the bad abuse.
  - cforrester 6y ago
    > Just because you have a good use doesn’t outweigh the all the bad abuse. Personally, this is how I feel about downloading apps to my phone for every individual service and product. I see no need to download a separate app for each individual service I'm interested in, as the potential for abuse is higher than getting the occasional notification from my browser app and visiting their website. However, it sounds to me like the focus should be on minimizing the potential for any avenue of information delivery to be abused, not to remove or decline to add features for fear that they will be. From the user side, I'm not interested in being told by a developer, "download my app if it's so important to you." I'd probably never discover how useful a service can be if I would have to download another app to try it. From the developer side, I'm not interested in telling potential users, "you actually don't want that feature."
    - Google234 6y ago
      99% of apps you download aren’t spam unlike the 99% of web notification requests that are spanmy
      - cforrester 6y ago
        I don't find that very convincing at all. 99% of apps I've ever used add no value beyond what a web interface could do, and most of those send me spammy notifications trying to draw me back into the app. App notification spam is a much greater problem for me and everyone I know than web notification spam, and apps pose a greater privacy and security threat.
      - pmontra 6y ago
        I agree, because I've become picky about what I install. I tend to use only open source apps, especially from F-Droid. However I routinely deny notification requests in Firefox so this is not a problem. I also routinely deny the permission to use canvas image data. Firefox warns it can be used to fingerprint browsers https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-against-fingerprinting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-agai... Sadly Apple does its best to make more money. If they allow other browser engines they'd end up selling less apps. IMHO they'll care about privacy only until it positively correlates with making money. If it will ever cost them more than it gains, they'll find a way to weaken privacy without losing face. An example, Apple ruthlessly enforcing in app payments for small companies but bowing to Netflix, Amazon and the like. They know they would sell less phones if those apps won't run on iOS. And that's expected. Why would a company care about you and me in this age? No more than what you and me would care about ants.
      - zambal 6y ago
        In my experience the usage of notifications in native apps is hardly less spammy than web notifications.
        kyriakos 6y ago
        Instagram, Facebook, Twitter are the biggest offenders here. Its worse cause for these apps if you allow them the send notifications permissions you are automatically opting-in for everything and you need to use their UI to granularly remove the ones you don't want.
  - endless1234 6y ago
    >Have those users download some simple app The whole discussion is about it being unnecessary resource use to develop said "simple app" due to Apple's restrictions on mobile Safari..
    - fragile_frogs 6y ago
      And not everyone has the resources to build a "simple app" just for iOS.
  - kyriakos 6y ago
    How is this abused when you have to opt in to get the notifications? If you opt out once the site cannot request it again.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    This is, unfortunately, the route we're going, and was addressed in the OP: > Despite the web app working perfectly on Android and across Windows, Linux and macOS without native integration, we now must dedicate time and resources to develop an additional iOS app just so iOS users, which over half of Americans are, aren't left out. > This is an expensive endeavor time-wise and money-wise, during a pandemic where time is of the essence and resources are stretched thin. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. The end result is that, right now, some sick patients are punished for their wrong choice of phone or tablet because the native app doesn't exist yet, while others don't have a problem.
- watermelon0 6y ago
  PWA cab be 'installed' to the device, similarly to 'Add to home screen' option. It would be reasonable to allow notifications only to installed PWA, and not just any website you visit.
  - tehbeard 6y ago
    This is what I've wanted safari/iOS to do. They'd get to claim privacy/user safety (no drive by permissions grab) But, this eats into their walled garden money pit, so yeah it's not going to happen..
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    It seems like the that’s the obvious solution at first but if you think about it, this will make every site ever to greet you with “add to home screen” popup. Just like aggressively trying to make you install their app from the appstore. The number will increase since there won’t be a barrier of entry. Then there would be people who are trying to make you "install" their PWA at any cost, then sell their install base and the buyers will simply rename the app/website to anything they want. It can actually be another golden age for the web while making users hate their phones.
    - danShumway 6y ago
      Right now, if you go to any website on mobile, you get a big popup telling you to install a native app. What would be different? Getting asked to enable a browser feature is not more annoying than getting asked to exit the app and install a brand new native app with worse sandboxing and privacy. It's at most the same level of annoying.
      - mrtksn 6y ago
        There's some barrier of entry(buy an account and create documents describing your app) to have a mobile app, with PWA it will be removed and you will have every single website trying to make you "install" their web app, just like every single website is trying to take your e-mail address or make you create an account. The app experience is almost always better because you always have more screen real estate, higher performance, better persistence and the developer has more opportunities to monetise you which eases the need to shove all the adds technologically possible into your face before you leave and never come back. Visiting a new website in 2021 has the following installation process: 0) click a link 1) download the website. Websites are bloated these days, things jump around until you download and execute a few MB of JS, CSS, HTML and so on. 2) accept/deny tracking(usually designed to trick you into accepting) 3) accept/deny subscribing to newsletters(usually the skip button is obscured) 4) try to figure out what is this all about, trying to distinguish site element from ads 5) if you still want to continue you probably will need to create an account for anything that's beyond an article. Many times, you will need to create an account even for an article 6) after all that jazz you can actually try out the app/website or consume the article 7) if you like what you see, you need to bookmark/add to home screen An app experiance is something like this: 0) click a link 1) see screenshots and explanation of what this app is all about, accompanied with reviews and ratings 3) if you like what you se, tap install, make a fingerprint scan or a face scan to download and open the app 4) try out the app. if you like it, it will be on your homescreen to use again. if you don't like it, you can delete it from the same place. For both cases, any use hardware or system API you will get about the same popup asking you to give access to location/microphone/camera/bluetooth. For the mobile app the experience of managing it will be easier since it will have standardised settings in the device settings and you know the permissions are revoked when you delete the app. For web apps you don't have an uninstall process. You need to dive into browser settings to remove history, cookies etc.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  Can you send them an SMS? One would think that notifying someone with a phone is a solved problem that doesn't require deep phone-browser integration.
onion2k 6y ago
The default setting for notifications in Chrome is "Sites can ask to send notifications", but you can set that to false in "Preferences > Privacy and security > Site settings > Notifications" and you'll never see the browser popup again. This is a feature that Chrome has had for about 6 years. The fact you haven't discovered it shows Chrome's UX could be better, but the fact you haven't searched for it might alsp show that the popups aren't quite such a problem for you after all.
- visarga 6y ago
  Yeah, it's an old "feature" that makes me immediately close the site and never come back. The culprit is usually a random newspaper.
- melq 6y ago
  You don't seem to understand what "I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone." means.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    The point is that you don't represent everybody, yet the browser gives you a choice instead of forcing you to do something.
    - prepend 6y ago
      The point is that few want this and Chrome make a default behavior that inconveniences lots of users. Chrome should default not to prompt. Safari estimates that no one wants this, and I suspect they’re right.
      - onion2k 6y ago
        Chrome should default not to prompt. It absolutely should. Making the default "never prompt" would lead to websites prompting users to modify their preferences and change security settings. We do not want to normalize that behaviour. It would be a security nightmare. The defaults might be a little annoying for users (who can switch it to never prompt if they want to) but keeping average users who do want email or chat notifications safe online should take priority.
yunohn 6y ago
>> I don’t want Who are you? And why does only your absolute opinion matter, when others are asking for a choice?
- Google234 6y ago
  I’m the same as the the users of Firefox who deny 99% of notifications https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricting-notification-permission-prompts-in-firefox/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... We are the the 99%
  - onion2k 6y ago
    99% of notification requests being blocked is not the same as 99% of users blocking notifications. If every user visits 100 sites and accepts notifications from one of them, then 100% of users actually want notifications despite 99% of requests being denied. I'm not defending stupid notification popups from some website you'll only ever visit once. Those are annoying. I'm saying you can't tell what users want unless you specifically measure exactly that. Maybe you're right and 99% of users don't want notifications, but that's not what your cited numbers show. You're drawing a conclusion from the data that isn't there.
    - Google234 6y ago
      I would imagine that 99% of people wouldn’t be happy with a service that is 99% spam.
      - onion2k 6y ago
        Again though you're making assumptions that the data can't back up. If a site asks to send me notifications and I say no that doesn't make the notifications spam. That just means I don't want to see them for some reason. And besides, for something to be spam you need to actually see it. In the case of notifications if you deny the permission on a site you don't see the notifications. That's the perfect spam filter. Imagine a world where people could only send you email if you explicitly said you accepted it from them. Or if robocallers could only call you if you agreed first. Spam would be over. There would be no spam. That sounds fantastic.
kyriakos 6y ago
You can always disable all notifications from browser for your use case. Personally on Android I have enabled notifications from a total of 2 sites and I find the experience quite good. I actually think its better than having to install an app for something that you rarely use just for that one time you will need to receive a notification from it.

I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. Sites abuses this and are always asking on my computer and it’s too easy to accidentally say accept.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone. You might not, but our users requested desktop and mobile notifications. The notifications let sick patients know when their prescriptions are ready, facilitate care-provider check ups, etc.

Google234 6y ago
Have those users download some simple app if this is so important to them. Or let them enter their phone number to get more reliable text notifications. Just because you have a good use doesn’t outweigh the all the bad abuse.
- cforrester 6y ago
  > Just because you have a good use doesn’t outweigh the all the bad abuse. Personally, this is how I feel about downloading apps to my phone for every individual service and product. I see no need to download a separate app for each individual service I'm interested in, as the potential for abuse is higher than getting the occasional notification from my browser app and visiting their website. However, it sounds to me like the focus should be on minimizing the potential for any avenue of information delivery to be abused, not to remove or decline to add features for fear that they will be. From the user side, I'm not interested in being told by a developer, "download my app if it's so important to you." I'd probably never discover how useful a service can be if I would have to download another app to try it. From the developer side, I'm not interested in telling potential users, "you actually don't want that feature."
  - Google234 6y ago
    99% of apps you download aren’t spam unlike the 99% of web notification requests that are spanmy
    - cforrester 6y ago
      I don't find that very convincing at all. 99% of apps I've ever used add no value beyond what a web interface could do, and most of those send me spammy notifications trying to draw me back into the app. App notification spam is a much greater problem for me and everyone I know than web notification spam, and apps pose a greater privacy and security threat.
    - pmontra 6y ago
      I agree, because I've become picky about what I install. I tend to use only open source apps, especially from F-Droid. However I routinely deny notification requests in Firefox so this is not a problem. I also routinely deny the permission to use canvas image data. Firefox warns it can be used to fingerprint browsers https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-against-fingerprinting https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-protection-agai... Sadly Apple does its best to make more money. If they allow other browser engines they'd end up selling less apps. IMHO they'll care about privacy only until it positively correlates with making money. If it will ever cost them more than it gains, they'll find a way to weaken privacy without losing face. An example, Apple ruthlessly enforcing in app payments for small companies but bowing to Netflix, Amazon and the like. They know they would sell less phones if those apps won't run on iOS. And that's expected. Why would a company care about you and me in this age? No more than what you and me would care about ants.
    - zambal 6y ago
      In my experience the usage of notifications in native apps is hardly less spammy than web notifications.
      - kyriakos 6y ago
        Instagram, Facebook, Twitter are the biggest offenders here. Its worse cause for these apps if you allow them the send notifications permissions you are automatically opting-in for everything and you need to use their UI to granularly remove the ones you don't want.
- endless1234 6y ago
  >Have those users download some simple app The whole discussion is about it being unnecessary resource use to develop said "simple app" due to Apple's restrictions on mobile Safari..
  - fragile_frogs 6y ago
    And not everyone has the resources to build a "simple app" just for iOS.
- kyriakos 6y ago
  How is this abused when you have to opt in to get the notifications? If you opt out once the site cannot request it again.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  This is, unfortunately, the route we're going, and was addressed in the OP: > Despite the web app working perfectly on Android and across Windows, Linux and macOS without native integration, we now must dedicate time and resources to develop an additional iOS app just so iOS users, which over half of Americans are, aren't left out. > This is an expensive endeavor time-wise and money-wise, during a pandemic where time is of the essence and resources are stretched thin. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. The end result is that, right now, some sick patients are punished for their wrong choice of phone or tablet because the native app doesn't exist yet, while others don't have a problem.
watermelon0 6y ago
PWA cab be 'installed' to the device, similarly to 'Add to home screen' option. It would be reasonable to allow notifications only to installed PWA, and not just any website you visit.
- tehbeard 6y ago
  This is what I've wanted safari/iOS to do. They'd get to claim privacy/user safety (no drive by permissions grab) But, this eats into their walled garden money pit, so yeah it's not going to happen..
- mrtksn 6y ago
  It seems like the that’s the obvious solution at first but if you think about it, this will make every site ever to greet you with “add to home screen” popup. Just like aggressively trying to make you install their app from the appstore. The number will increase since there won’t be a barrier of entry. Then there would be people who are trying to make you "install" their PWA at any cost, then sell their install base and the buyers will simply rename the app/website to anything they want. It can actually be another golden age for the web while making users hate their phones.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    Right now, if you go to any website on mobile, you get a big popup telling you to install a native app. What would be different? Getting asked to enable a browser feature is not more annoying than getting asked to exit the app and install a brand new native app with worse sandboxing and privacy. It's at most the same level of annoying.
    - mrtksn 6y ago
      There's some barrier of entry(buy an account and create documents describing your app) to have a mobile app, with PWA it will be removed and you will have every single website trying to make you "install" their web app, just like every single website is trying to take your e-mail address or make you create an account. The app experience is almost always better because you always have more screen real estate, higher performance, better persistence and the developer has more opportunities to monetise you which eases the need to shove all the adds technologically possible into your face before you leave and never come back. Visiting a new website in 2021 has the following installation process: 0) click a link 1) download the website. Websites are bloated these days, things jump around until you download and execute a few MB of JS, CSS, HTML and so on. 2) accept/deny tracking(usually designed to trick you into accepting) 3) accept/deny subscribing to newsletters(usually the skip button is obscured) 4) try to figure out what is this all about, trying to distinguish site element from ads 5) if you still want to continue you probably will need to create an account for anything that's beyond an article. Many times, you will need to create an account even for an article 6) after all that jazz you can actually try out the app/website or consume the article 7) if you like what you see, you need to bookmark/add to home screen An app experiance is something like this: 0) click a link 1) see screenshots and explanation of what this app is all about, accompanied with reviews and ratings 3) if you like what you se, tap install, make a fingerprint scan or a face scan to download and open the app 4) try out the app. if you like it, it will be on your homescreen to use again. if you don't like it, you can delete it from the same place. For both cases, any use hardware or system API you will get about the same popup asking you to give access to location/microphone/camera/bluetooth. For the mobile app the experience of managing it will be easier since it will have standardised settings in the device settings and you know the permissions are revoked when you delete the app. For web apps you don't have an uninstall process. You need to dive into browser settings to remove history, cookies etc.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rsj_hn 6y ago
Can you send them an SMS? One would think that notifying someone with a phone is a solved problem that doesn't require deep phone-browser integration.

onion2k 6y ago

The default setting for notifications in Chrome is "Sites can ask to send notifications", but you can set that to false in "Preferences > Privacy and security > Site settings > Notifications" and you'll never see the browser popup again. This is a feature that Chrome has had for about 6 years. The fact you haven't discovered it shows Chrome's UX could be better, but the fact you haven't searched for it might alsp show that the popups aren't quite such a problem for you after all.

visarga 6y ago
Yeah, it's an old "feature" that makes me immediately close the site and never come back. The culprit is usually a random newspaper.
melq 6y ago
You don't seem to understand what "I don’t want websites to be able to send notifications to my phone." means.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  The point is that you don't represent everybody, yet the browser gives you a choice instead of forcing you to do something.
  - prepend 6y ago
    The point is that few want this and Chrome make a default behavior that inconveniences lots of users. Chrome should default not to prompt. Safari estimates that no one wants this, and I suspect they’re right.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      Chrome should default not to prompt. It absolutely should. Making the default "never prompt" would lead to websites prompting users to modify their preferences and change security settings. We do not want to normalize that behaviour. It would be a security nightmare. The defaults might be a little annoying for users (who can switch it to never prompt if they want to) but keeping average users who do want email or chat notifications safe online should take priority.

yunohn 6y ago

>> I don’t want Who are you? And why does only your absolute opinion matter, when others are asking for a choice?

Google234 6y ago
I’m the same as the the users of Firefox who deny 99% of notifications https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricting-notification-permission-prompts-in-firefox/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... We are the the 99%
- onion2k 6y ago
  99% of notification requests being blocked is not the same as 99% of users blocking notifications. If every user visits 100 sites and accepts notifications from one of them, then 100% of users actually want notifications despite 99% of requests being denied. I'm not defending stupid notification popups from some website you'll only ever visit once. Those are annoying. I'm saying you can't tell what users want unless you specifically measure exactly that. Maybe you're right and 99% of users don't want notifications, but that's not what your cited numbers show. You're drawing a conclusion from the data that isn't there.
  - Google234 6y ago
    I would imagine that 99% of people wouldn’t be happy with a service that is 99% spam.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      Again though you're making assumptions that the data can't back up. If a site asks to send me notifications and I say no that doesn't make the notifications spam. That just means I don't want to see them for some reason. And besides, for something to be spam you need to actually see it. In the case of notifications if you deny the permission on a site you don't see the notifications. That's the perfect spam filter. Imagine a world where people could only send you email if you explicitly said you accepted it from them. Or if robocallers could only call you if you agreed first. Spam would be over. There would be no spam. That sounds fantastic.

kyriakos 6y ago

You can always disable all notifications from browser for your use case. Personally on Android I have enabled notifications from a total of 2 sites and I find the experience quite good. I actually think its better than having to install an app for something that you rarely use just for that one time you will need to receive a notification from it.