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Yeah, having to click no all the time on desktop Safari is terrible. Also websites have realized that I am going to click No in the browser, so now they popup

Yeah, having to click no all the time on desktop Safari is terrible. Also websites have realized that I am going to click No in the browser, so now they popup first asking if I want to allow push notifications in JavaScript so when I click no, they can ask me again later, vs if they popped up the browser and got a "No" there they could never ask me again.

nwienert 6y ago
Did I accidentally disable this or something? I’ve never seen it. Everyone acts like 1. For some reason it has to be some sort of pop up, it could easily be a small icon in your bar 2. Apple couldn’t/wouldn’t design this so that it was unobtrusive 3. If the way they did design it was still too annoying, they wouldn’t make it less so, or make it easy to turn off Why do so many on HN argue from “if it existed it would obviously be in form X that already exists and therefore be bad and therefore I never want it and will oppose it vehemently” it’s a total lack of capability of even the most incremental innovative thinking.
- ArchOversight 6y ago
  > 1. For some reason it has to be some sort of pop up, it could easily be a small icon in your bar It is a popup right now... it is in your face and requires immediate action. An example: https://imgur.com/a/GfqUuAZ https://imgur.com/a/GfqUuAZ Using: https://www.bennish.net/web-notifications.html https://www.bennish.net/web-notifications.html > 2. Apple couldn’t/wouldn’t design this so that it was unobtrusive It is obtrusive in that it is a full-window popover and you can't go to any other tabs until you have completed the action. > 3. If the way they did design it was still too annoying, they wouldn’t make it less so, or make it easy to turn off You can currently disable it browser wide in Preferences -> Websites => "Allow websites to ask permission to send notifications". However, that doesn't stop various websites from displaying their own JavaScript based popups and requests before even attempting to use the Web Push Notifications API to see if the user wants to grant access using the native API's. This way they can nag the user over and over to enable notifications whereas if you deny it once in the browser you need to take a bunch of manual steps to remove the website and grant them access.
  - kaoD 6y ago
    Wow, now I understand the sentiment... but that's a reason to stop using Safari, not against notifications.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Safari does not use the Web Push or Notification API, Apple has a bespoke Safari Push Notifications[1] API on macOS, so this poor implementation is completely on Apple. On Firefox, it just puts a little message window icon in your address bar if you didn't trigger the Notifications API permission via a control on the website. When you do trigger the permissions through user interaction, and unobstructive widget shows up[2] that can be promptly hidden without ever actually interacting with it, unlike in your Safari example. [1] https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi... [2] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/push-notifications-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/push-notifications-fire...
- yunohn 6y ago
  >> it’s a total lack of capability of even the most incremental innovative thinking Honestly, HN is a cargo cult of native only, anti web app sentiment. It’s frustrating.
  - sbuk 6y ago
    Or... Your opinion isn’t held by other people, some of whom disagree with your opinion and are expressing that.
    - nwienert 6y ago
      HN has many cargo cults not reflected by broader tech. It certainly has a crowd.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > Your opinion isn’t held by other people, some of whom disagree with your opinion and are expressing that. The other opinion seems "notifications cannot be disabled, therefore notifications are bad". If you don't want to see notification requests, you never will. Granted: you need to be able to change settings, in a very restricted environment or with a custom clone of some browser you might not be able to. For most users, that's not a problem. I'm one of them. I don't see notification requests on my desktop or phone. Neither do I see requests for geo-location, even though the browser is fundamentally capable of providing my geo-location to websites through an API; I've disabled it.
      - sbuk 6y ago
        I didn’t express an opinion either way. But it’s clear to me that there are some amongst us that believe that a difference of opinion must mean everyone who disagrees must therefore be in a cargo cult. That is what I am taking issue with. It’s also against the guidelines here.
        luckylion 6y ago
        I'm still struggling to find out the non-cult reason for "the feature must be banned from the browser, just being able to disable it for all time with a single click is not enough".
mortenjorck 6y ago
I agree about clicking no all the time. This isn't an intractable problem, though; people just assume the ask-on-visit interaction pattern is the only way to implement this kind of functionality. If I were on the Mobile Safari team, I'd propose bundling notifications into the bookmark workflow. If a user chooses to bookmark a site, prompt them at that moment (as an option in the modal) to subscribe to notifications if the site offers it. Because the user is expressing an interest in returning to the site, it's now appropriate to ask them to enable notifications, versus their first visit. (For sites accessed through a synced iCloud bookmark, however, I would show a notifications prompt for the first visit on that device.)
- diebeforei485 6y ago
  Perhaps desktop Safari should work the way you described. Whenever I get a new Mac, one of the first things I do is stop allowing any website to ask to notify me.
ryandrake 6y ago
I wish developers could get it through their skulls. I don’t want your notifications. Your app is not important enough that I’m willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of notifications is a desired feature. Please stop using notifications. It is almost always a pathetic attempt to try to “drive engagement” to your app. If I want to run your app I will run it. You don’t have to nudge me into it. The world would be a better place if all platforms got rid of them. Please stop adding to the problem.
- luckylion 6y ago
  "I don't want notifications" is just a setting in a modern browser. And voila, it's as if notifications did not exist as a feature. I don't understand why you need the feature to not exist; do you feel tempted to leave them enabled if they can be enabled? I don't like notifications. I never get any notifications requests, unless I'm in a private window trying because some site wouldn't work with adblockers etc. Life can be so simple.
- nexuist 6y ago
  > I don’t want your notifications. Your app is not important enough that I’m willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of notifications is a desired feature. Please stop using notifications. I don't want your phone calls. Your conversation is not important enough that I'm willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of phone calls is a desired feature. Please stop using phone calls. If I want to talk to you I will write you a letter. You don't have to nudge me into it.
  - wruza 6y ago
    As someone who gets marketing calls every fine day, I agree with your every word. And with gp too. The problem with not implementing notifications is that when they are useful (instant dispatch software), they are not implemented. But honestly I’d just spin up a telegram or email bot, if clients were not brainwashed with tekhnology. Messages and email are notifications. It is also a matter of minutes, opposed to creating a stupid service worker client-server-like runtime and trying to get things right without any test mode (long story short, implementing and debugging webpush requires publishing every change to a certified https host). There is even an entire company that sells you a properly configured webpush as a service. That’s just stupid.

nwienert 6y ago

Did I accidentally disable this or something? I’ve never seen it. Everyone acts like 1. For some reason it has to be some sort of pop up, it could easily be a small icon in your bar 2. Apple couldn’t/wouldn’t design this so that it was unobtrusive 3. If the way they did design it was still too annoying, they wouldn’t make it less so, or make it easy to turn off Why do so many on HN argue from “if it existed it would obviously be in form X that already exists and therefore be bad and therefore I never want it and will oppose it vehemently” it’s a total lack of capability of even the most incremental innovative thinking.

ArchOversight 6y ago
> 1. For some reason it has to be some sort of pop up, it could easily be a small icon in your bar It is a popup right now... it is in your face and requires immediate action. An example: https://imgur.com/a/GfqUuAZ https://imgur.com/a/GfqUuAZ Using: https://www.bennish.net/web-notifications.html https://www.bennish.net/web-notifications.html > 2. Apple couldn’t/wouldn’t design this so that it was unobtrusive It is obtrusive in that it is a full-window popover and you can't go to any other tabs until you have completed the action. > 3. If the way they did design it was still too annoying, they wouldn’t make it less so, or make it easy to turn off You can currently disable it browser wide in Preferences -> Websites => "Allow websites to ask permission to send notifications". However, that doesn't stop various websites from displaying their own JavaScript based popups and requests before even attempting to use the Web Push Notifications API to see if the user wants to grant access using the native API's. This way they can nag the user over and over to enable notifications whereas if you deny it once in the browser you need to take a bunch of manual steps to remove the website and grant them access.
- kaoD 6y ago
  Wow, now I understand the sentiment... but that's a reason to stop using Safari, not against notifications.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Safari does not use the Web Push or Notification API, Apple has a bespoke Safari Push Notifications[1] API on macOS, so this poor implementation is completely on Apple. On Firefox, it just puts a little message window icon in your address bar if you didn't trigger the Notifications API permission via a control on the website. When you do trigger the permissions through user interaction, and unobstructive widget shows up[2] that can be promptly hidden without ever actually interacting with it, unlike in your Safari example. [1] https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi... [2] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/push-notifications-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/push-notifications-fire...
yunohn 6y ago
>> it’s a total lack of capability of even the most incremental innovative thinking Honestly, HN is a cargo cult of native only, anti web app sentiment. It’s frustrating.
- sbuk 6y ago
  Or... Your opinion isn’t held by other people, some of whom disagree with your opinion and are expressing that.
  - nwienert 6y ago
    HN has many cargo cults not reflected by broader tech. It certainly has a crowd.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Your opinion isn’t held by other people, some of whom disagree with your opinion and are expressing that. The other opinion seems "notifications cannot be disabled, therefore notifications are bad". If you don't want to see notification requests, you never will. Granted: you need to be able to change settings, in a very restricted environment or with a custom clone of some browser you might not be able to. For most users, that's not a problem. I'm one of them. I don't see notification requests on my desktop or phone. Neither do I see requests for geo-location, even though the browser is fundamentally capable of providing my geo-location to websites through an API; I've disabled it.
    - sbuk 6y ago
      I didn’t express an opinion either way. But it’s clear to me that there are some amongst us that believe that a difference of opinion must mean everyone who disagrees must therefore be in a cargo cult. That is what I am taking issue with. It’s also against the guidelines here.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        I'm still struggling to find out the non-cult reason for "the feature must be banned from the browser, just being able to disable it for all time with a single click is not enough".

mortenjorck 6y ago

I agree about clicking no all the time. This isn't an intractable problem, though; people just assume the ask-on-visit interaction pattern is the only way to implement this kind of functionality. If I were on the Mobile Safari team, I'd propose bundling notifications into the bookmark workflow. If a user chooses to bookmark a site, prompt them at that moment (as an option in the modal) to subscribe to notifications if the site offers it. Because the user is expressing an interest in returning to the site, it's now appropriate to ask them to enable notifications, versus their first visit. (For sites accessed through a synced iCloud bookmark, however, I would show a notifications prompt for the first visit on that device.)

diebeforei485 6y ago
Perhaps desktop Safari should work the way you described. Whenever I get a new Mac, one of the first things I do is stop allowing any website to ask to notify me.

ryandrake 6y ago

I wish developers could get it through their skulls. I don’t want your notifications. Your app is not important enough that I’m willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of notifications is a desired feature. Please stop using notifications. It is almost always a pathetic attempt to try to “drive engagement” to your app. If I want to run your app I will run it. You don’t have to nudge me into it. The world would be a better place if all platforms got rid of them. Please stop adding to the problem.

luckylion 6y ago
"I don't want notifications" is just a setting in a modern browser. And voila, it's as if notifications did not exist as a feature. I don't understand why you need the feature to not exist; do you feel tempted to leave them enabled if they can be enabled? I don't like notifications. I never get any notifications requests, unless I'm in a private window trying because some site wouldn't work with adblockers etc. Life can be so simple.
nexuist 6y ago
> I don’t want your notifications. Your app is not important enough that I’m willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of notifications is a desired feature. Please stop using notifications. I don't want your phone calls. Your conversation is not important enough that I'm willing to be interrupted by you. The lack of phone calls is a desired feature. Please stop using phone calls. If I want to talk to you I will write you a letter. You don't have to nudge me into it.
- wruza 6y ago
  As someone who gets marketing calls every fine day, I agree with your every word. And with gp too. The problem with not implementing notifications is that when they are useful (instant dispatch software), they are not implemented. But honestly I’d just spin up a telegram or email bot, if clients were not brainwashed with tekhnology. Messages and email are notifications. It is also a matter of minutes, opposed to creating a stupid service worker client-server-like runtime and trying to get things right without any test mode (long story short, implementing and debugging webpush requires publishing every change to a certified https host). There is even an entire company that sells you a properly configured webpush as a service. That’s just stupid.