6 ms·

Leaked NPD(German right wing party) donors-list meets Google maps

48 points by kv0 15y ago

scrrr 15y ago
Perhaps a bit off-topic: The world will change in the coming years. Not only in Egypt & Co. but also in the west. Curious to see how the governments & elites will react. A sense of enlightenment might propagate throughout the masses. For example: Tomorrow people might no longer tolerate their government's corruption. The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy. How would that effect everything? If anything, people vastly underestimate the change that the Internet represents.
- katovatzschyn 15y ago
  Regarding: "The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy." I would like to add that it is also easy to underestimate the inherent desire to consume, purchase, and obtain material wealth- even among an informed population.
- GHFigs 15y ago
  The propagation of ideas is more often a function of their fecundity than their nobility.
  - scrrr 15y ago
    Hm, I think that statement could be contested. But anyway, in regards to the effect the web has, one could argue that democratization has enough value to the people who are using the Internet to spread western values in their countries to go out and do something.
VMG 15y ago
Source: http://hop2.nn-crew.cc/npd/ http://hop2.nn-crew.cc/npd/ Slightly edited Google Translate: First, a few words in advance. I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany. If politics or the law will prosecute me, my heart aches. Because if they doe, all the great words of politicians are vain. Words such as: we will not allow that brings the NPD or the right wing of our children on the wrong track. We will do everything to the NPD or the Nazis to stop them. I know my actions will provoke a broad public interest. That is exactly my goal. I want the Germans are proud of themselves and their country, of the history and achievements. The whole world envies us for our intelligence and knowledge. But ok, that is up to you. The NPD can do what they want, I basically do not care. But if there is one thing I do care about, it is our children and our youth. I will not allow the NPD to gain more influence and spread their propaganda material on school grounds. The NPD is trying to influence our most precious treasure. I am assuming that you exceed, as a reader, a certain intellectual level to understanding for what I mean by "treasure". I am not a man of great words. And for this reason I will leave it at that.
- mhd 15y ago
  "I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany." First step: Don't ever talk like that.
  - radiosnob 15y ago
    as a non-german living in germany, why?
    - mhd 15y ago
      We had some bad experiences with "Deutschland über Alles" a couple of years ago, so "proud to be a German" and things like that are frowned upon, as they evoke the wrong images. I leave the discussion about the merits of patriotism out of this, as it really doesn't matter that much here. This is more about advertising than content, and repeating the now unsung verses of the national anthem is generally considered a bit more than just a faux pas and causes legions of British reporters to perk up their ears...
      - nickik 15y ago
        I'm not a big fan of patriotism either but saying your proud of your country is basiclly what almost everybody in every country sais.
        darklajid 15y ago
        I agree with his points (now): It's not the pride in itself (we can argue if that is helpful, but that's not what mhd critizises). It's the phrase used (or - a couple of phrases, plus maybe the general tone) that leads to really nasty subtext. The translation is incomplete. He didn't write "Ich bin stolz auf Deutschland" (I'm proud of Germany), he used "Ich bin ein stolzer Deutscher" (I'm a proud German), a phrase that is heavily (ab)used by the far right, the extremists.
        15y ago
kevinpet 15y ago
I find it fascinating with these kinds of datasets that the outliers are more likely than not errors. For example, I'm guessing that "Nevskiy Prospekt" is most likely in the non-Florida St. Petersburg.
chalst 15y ago
This has been covered by the mainstream German media: 30.5.2011, Spiegel Online, Hacker kapern rechte Websites, http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,765784,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,765784,00.html 31.5.2011, sueddeutsche.de, Hacker kapern NPD-Webseiten, http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/attacke-auf-rechte-partei-hacker-kapern-npd-webseiten-1.1103492 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/attacke-auf-rechte-partei... The NPD response, quoted in the Spiegel article, is laughable: they talk about how their security was relatively good and that there is no such thing as 100% security rather than what they are going to do for their exposed donors. With luck, this means that they will have fewer donors in future. Just in case the point needs spelling out: for an organisation to to administer all of its 26 websites from the same machine it stores some of its most sensitive data is not relatively good security.
- wedesoft 15y ago
  Considering the number of NPD deputies who have lost their mandate because of fraud, embezzlement, theft, ... I would say that security is not exactly their primary concern.
batterseapower 15y ago
Why is it that people support secret ballot, but not secret donation? Both are forms of political support, and making them public can in theory prevent people from expressing their true views. So why is the secrecy of one protected, but not the other?
- FrojoS 15y ago
  My opinion: In a democracy, ideally every one should have the same amount of voting power. Independent of social status, power and wealth. Secret of vote, is there to prevent bribery and blackmail. Hence, even a poor and powerless person can vote, according to their heart. In contrast, donations to politicians and parties, are an attempt to "buy" elections.
  - VMG 15y ago
    You could make it so that even the receiver of the donation doesn't know where the money comes from.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      I heard this idea somewhere else recently, and I think it's brilliant. Instead of limiting sizes of political donations, just make it impossible to track who gave 'em. Oh sure, you can still tell your favourite politician "Hey, I just gave you ten thousand dollars" but they can't possibly check. Closing a few obvious loopholes: you should only be able to donate in certain nice round numbers ($10, $20, $50, $100, ... $10,000, $20,000) to avoid situations where you can tell a politician "Hey, the $15433.33 donation is from me" and have them confirm it. And it should be fuzzy in time, too -- politicians shouldn't know when a donation came in with resolution greater than a week or so. It's great, because people are still free to support their favourite politicians as much as they like, but with greatly decreased possibility for corruption. Politicians will, of course, hate it, so it'll never happen.
      - VMG 15y ago
        They don't even have to know the amount of the transactions. The "campaign donation bureau" can only releases monthly balances.
JonnieCache 15y ago
This happened with the UK's own fascist/far-right party in 2009. Twice, actually. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-membership-list-wikileaks http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-membershi...
Andi 15y ago
This is not fair - whoever has donated and whatever party he supports. For sure, we all know Germany's history and we know that we need to take care about what nationalist parties are doing. But it is not fair to publish a list of people who have donated. It is your right to stay private! To conclude: There are more severe threats: business men insuits, people who underpay workers. In Germany, the NPD is not the most serious threat.
zwieback 15y ago
I'm a little surprised that there weren't higher concentrations in areas that I usually associate with ultra-conservative views, e.g. the rural South.
- adimitrov 15y ago
  The rural southern areas are conservative, not fascist — though their conservatism usually implies a bit of racism, that doesn't mean that they tend to support radical fascism. They're usually too scared to ruin their public or neighborhood image. The "battle for the heads" (Kampf um die Köpfe in German; how the NPD's and similar right-wing institutions' propaganda battle is often referred to in German media,) targets mostly bored and disillusioned youth, and is more successful in the poorer East than it would be in the well-off South.
hugh3 15y ago
First they came for the yada yada yada... I really wish that before deploying a tactic like this against their political enemies folks would stop and consider what the world would be like if the shoe was on the other foot and their political enemies were deploying it against them. But a seriously large number of people seem to have an attitude that "It's okay, we can do this, we're the good guys".
- adimitrov 15y ago
  I must agree with you; but the list itself got so much exposure in the German media already, that it'd be pointless debating this collection in GoogleMaps. In general, it's kind of a difficult topic. I agree, that votes cast should always be private. But I'm partial on donations. A scenario in which supporters of an illegal party would be prosecuted by an oppressive state is quite different from simply making it known exactly who supports a legal party in any kind of state. As long as there is no consequence whatsoever for the donors themselves, I believe that open donations can make the political game more public, and less secretive. Wasn't there a similar discussion in America about concealing names of donors in presidential elections? I can't remember anymore, must've been around the time Obama came to power.
- chalst 15y ago
  There's no doubt that this is illegal. It's hard not to derive a little pleasure, though, when such illegal nastiness happens to the bad guys. Do be aware that the NPD isn't just guilty of holding unpopular views. The NPD frequently organises aggressively provocative rallies that generally lead to predicted violence, with the police reporting between 500 and 1,000 violent crimes most years that are rooted in right extremism - beating up immigrants, people who dress "wrong", &c.

48 points by kv0 15y ago

scrrr 15y ago

Perhaps a bit off-topic: The world will change in the coming years. Not only in Egypt & Co. but also in the west. Curious to see how the governments & elites will react. A sense of enlightenment might propagate throughout the masses. For example: Tomorrow people might no longer tolerate their government's corruption. The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy. How would that effect everything? If anything, people vastly underestimate the change that the Internet represents.

katovatzschyn 15y ago
Regarding: "The day after they might decide that they don't really need all the stuff they buy." I would like to add that it is also easy to underestimate the inherent desire to consume, purchase, and obtain material wealth- even among an informed population.
GHFigs 15y ago
The propagation of ideas is more often a function of their fecundity than their nobility.
- scrrr 15y ago
  Hm, I think that statement could be contested. But anyway, in regards to the effect the web has, one could argue that democratization has enough value to the people who are using the Internet to spread western values in their countries to go out and do something.

VMG 15y ago

Source: http://hop2.nn-crew.cc/npd/ http://hop2.nn-crew.cc/npd/ Slightly edited Google Translate: First, a few words in advance. I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany. If politics or the law will prosecute me, my heart aches. Because if they doe, all the great words of politicians are vain. Words such as: we will not allow that brings the NPD or the right wing of our children on the wrong track. We will do everything to the NPD or the Nazis to stop them. I know my actions will provoke a broad public interest. That is exactly my goal. I want the Germans are proud of themselves and their country, of the history and achievements. The whole world envies us for our intelligence and knowledge. But ok, that is up to you. The NPD can do what they want, I basically do not care. But if there is one thing I do care about, it is our children and our youth. I will not allow the NPD to gain more influence and spread their propaganda material on school grounds. The NPD is trying to influence our most precious treasure. I am assuming that you exceed, as a reader, a certain intellectual level to understanding for what I mean by "treasure". I am not a man of great words. And for this reason I will leave it at that.

mhd 15y ago
"I am a proud German, I love Germany above everything, and I do everything in my power to improve the image of Germany." First step: Don't ever talk like that.
- radiosnob 15y ago
  as a non-german living in germany, why?
  - mhd 15y ago
    We had some bad experiences with "Deutschland über Alles" a couple of years ago, so "proud to be a German" and things like that are frowned upon, as they evoke the wrong images. I leave the discussion about the merits of patriotism out of this, as it really doesn't matter that much here. This is more about advertising than content, and repeating the now unsung verses of the national anthem is generally considered a bit more than just a faux pas and causes legions of British reporters to perk up their ears...
    - nickik 15y ago
      I'm not a big fan of patriotism either but saying your proud of your country is basiclly what almost everybody in every country sais.
      - darklajid 15y ago
        I agree with his points (now): It's not the pride in itself (we can argue if that is helpful, but that's not what mhd critizises). It's the phrase used (or - a couple of phrases, plus maybe the general tone) that leads to really nasty subtext. The translation is incomplete. He didn't write "Ich bin stolz auf Deutschland" (I'm proud of Germany), he used "Ich bin ein stolzer Deutscher" (I'm a proud German), a phrase that is heavily (ab)used by the far right, the extremists.
        15y ago

kevinpet 15y ago

I find it fascinating with these kinds of datasets that the outliers are more likely than not errors. For example, I'm guessing that "Nevskiy Prospekt" is most likely in the non-Florida St. Petersburg.

chalst 15y ago

This has been covered by the mainstream German media: 30.5.2011, Spiegel Online, Hacker kapern rechte Websites, http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,765784,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,765784,00.html 31.5.2011, sueddeutsche.de, Hacker kapern NPD-Webseiten, http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/attacke-auf-rechte-partei-hacker-kapern-npd-webseiten-1.1103492 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/attacke-auf-rechte-partei... The NPD response, quoted in the Spiegel article, is laughable: they talk about how their security was relatively good and that there is no such thing as 100% security rather than what they are going to do for their exposed donors. With luck, this means that they will have fewer donors in future. Just in case the point needs spelling out: for an organisation to to administer all of its 26 websites from the same machine it stores some of its most sensitive data is not relatively good security.

wedesoft 15y ago
Considering the number of NPD deputies who have lost their mandate because of fraud, embezzlement, theft, ... I would say that security is not exactly their primary concern.

batterseapower 15y ago

Why is it that people support secret ballot, but not secret donation? Both are forms of political support, and making them public can in theory prevent people from expressing their true views. So why is the secrecy of one protected, but not the other?

FrojoS 15y ago
My opinion: In a democracy, ideally every one should have the same amount of voting power. Independent of social status, power and wealth. Secret of vote, is there to prevent bribery and blackmail. Hence, even a poor and powerless person can vote, according to their heart. In contrast, donations to politicians and parties, are an attempt to "buy" elections.
- VMG 15y ago
  You could make it so that even the receiver of the donation doesn't know where the money comes from.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    I heard this idea somewhere else recently, and I think it's brilliant. Instead of limiting sizes of political donations, just make it impossible to track who gave 'em. Oh sure, you can still tell your favourite politician "Hey, I just gave you ten thousand dollars" but they can't possibly check. Closing a few obvious loopholes: you should only be able to donate in certain nice round numbers ($10, $20, $50, $100, ... $10,000, $20,000) to avoid situations where you can tell a politician "Hey, the $15433.33 donation is from me" and have them confirm it. And it should be fuzzy in time, too -- politicians shouldn't know when a donation came in with resolution greater than a week or so. It's great, because people are still free to support their favourite politicians as much as they like, but with greatly decreased possibility for corruption. Politicians will, of course, hate it, so it'll never happen.
    - VMG 15y ago
      They don't even have to know the amount of the transactions. The "campaign donation bureau" can only releases monthly balances.

JonnieCache 15y ago

This happened with the UK's own fascist/far-right party in 2009. Twice, actually. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-membership-list-wikileaks http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/bnp-membershi...

Andi 15y ago

This is not fair - whoever has donated and whatever party he supports. For sure, we all know Germany's history and we know that we need to take care about what nationalist parties are doing. But it is not fair to publish a list of people who have donated. It is your right to stay private! To conclude: There are more severe threats: business men insuits, people who underpay workers. In Germany, the NPD is not the most serious threat.

zwieback 15y ago

I'm a little surprised that there weren't higher concentrations in areas that I usually associate with ultra-conservative views, e.g. the rural South.

adimitrov 15y ago
The rural southern areas are conservative, not fascist — though their conservatism usually implies a bit of racism, that doesn't mean that they tend to support radical fascism. They're usually too scared to ruin their public or neighborhood image. The "battle for the heads" (Kampf um die Köpfe in German; how the NPD's and similar right-wing institutions' propaganda battle is often referred to in German media,) targets mostly bored and disillusioned youth, and is more successful in the poorer East than it would be in the well-off South.

hugh3 15y ago

First they came for the yada yada yada... I really wish that before deploying a tactic like this against their political enemies folks would stop and consider what the world would be like if the shoe was on the other foot and their political enemies were deploying it against them. But a seriously large number of people seem to have an attitude that "It's okay, we can do this, we're the good guys".

adimitrov 15y ago
I must agree with you; but the list itself got so much exposure in the German media already, that it'd be pointless debating this collection in GoogleMaps. In general, it's kind of a difficult topic. I agree, that votes cast should always be private. But I'm partial on donations. A scenario in which supporters of an illegal party would be prosecuted by an oppressive state is quite different from simply making it known exactly who supports a legal party in any kind of state. As long as there is no consequence whatsoever for the donors themselves, I believe that open donations can make the political game more public, and less secretive. Wasn't there a similar discussion in America about concealing names of donors in presidential elections? I can't remember anymore, must've been around the time Obama came to power.
chalst 15y ago
There's no doubt that this is illegal. It's hard not to derive a little pleasure, though, when such illegal nastiness happens to the bad guys. Do be aware that the NPD isn't just guilty of holding unpopular views. The NPD frequently organises aggressively provocative rallies that generally lead to predicted violence, with the police reporting between 500 and 1,000 violent crimes most years that are rooted in right extremism - beating up immigrants, people who dress "wrong", &c.