5 ms·

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defen

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defense against a far worse monopoly. Neither the Mozilla nor Edge teams have the backbone to resist Google's web platform initiatives.

julianlam 6y ago
> Edge teams What happened with Edge? I've been out of the loop with MS stuff for years, and last I heard you had to select a browser in the EU or something, but was this also made mandatory worldwide? I'd imagine still being bundled with Windows means their usage is not insignificant...
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Edge is now just a rebranded Chromium, and Microsoft's approach with Windows 10 suggests they are betting big on advertising and the "attention economy" thus very unlikely to push towards privacy protection.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    They are also adopting the "user herding" trend --- taking away choices and control, bludgeoning the userbase into docile and obedient consumers that they can monetise or do whatever else they want to. Take a look at the settings for IE, which actually improved with each new version, and you can clearly see which side MS used to be on. Then compare it with the useless dumbed-down "modern" UI of even pre-Chromium Edge.
- bleachedsleet 6y ago
  Edge is now a Chromium fork
  - julianlam 6y ago
    Ah, thank you. I must've missed this rather large change...
- aeontech 6y ago
  I think the parent is referring to the fact that MS abandoned their browser engine and Edge is now running on Chromium as of Jan 2020.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Edge is now a Chromium fork, and is headed by an ex-Googler who cheerfully me-toos every Google web agenda. It's sole purpose is to be a Chrome browser that connects to Microsoft accounts and hence can integrate with Microsoft's enterprise tools. Despite enterprise teams already finding Chrome's six week release cycle tedious, Microsoft immediately followed Chrome to announcing their four week cycle in the last week, and Edge also failed to protect ad blocking by rejecting the Manifest V3 changes for browser extensions designed to cripple ad blockers. Basically, at any opportunity Microsoft has had to differentiate itself, it has decided to just do what Google does.
  - dialtone 6y ago
    One day ycombinator will be full of people that talk after informing themselves, but that day is not today. The Chromium Edge doesn’t support 3rd party cookies already and thus isn’t really subject to targeted ads like Safari or Firefox. Now please continue with your reasoning.
    - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
      I’m not an expert on this, but aren’t there other ways to track users (like fingerprinting based on extensions)?
      - Jcowell 6y ago
        Yes but it doesn’t really matter. If you’re using edge chromium , you’re probably using it on the platform it runs best on anyway, that already would probably do it all anyway.
    - BoorishBears 6y ago
      I feel like someone just gave you a laundry list of problems, and you lifted a sock off the pile and acted like you had finished the lot...
  - hyperrail 6y ago
    The Edge team - first engineering alone, now both eng. and product - has been led for 3 years by Rajesh Sundaram, a Microsoft lifer who has never worked for Google. [1] And Chromium-based Edge has tracking prevention through filter lists, while Chrome does not. [2] Microsoft is no one's privacy hero these days, I will concede that. But some of these specific claims are just wrong. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajeshsu https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajeshsu [2] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/learn-about-tracking-prevention-in-microsoft-edge-5ac125e8-9b90-8d59-fa2c-7f2e9a44d869 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/learn-abo...
meibo 6y ago
"Not following sensible standards to protect your own App Store monopoly and being a pain in the ass to work with due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox)" is not a good base to build a defense against a monopoly on.
- DangitBobby 6y ago
  Saying they don't get rendering "right" implies they aren't following standards. Is Firefox not standards compliant?
  - fragile_frogs 6y ago
    iOS only allows webkit based browsers, thus every browser on iOS pretty much just a skinned Safari
    - DangitBobby 6y ago
      > due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox) Singling Firefox out by saying "even Firefox" makes me think you don't expect Firefox to "get it right." I am wondering why that is.
- EvilEy3 6y ago
  Being asshole for the sake of keeping a far worse asshole from being in total power is.
dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
I agree. And it's sort of perverse, isn't it? At least they’ll have extensions soon (or they do, already?) so it’ll become more usable. I would gladly use Safari on desktop, too. The graphics are excellent, which is one of the reasons I’m excited about https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri
adrr 6y ago
People choose to install chrome it doesn't come with Windows Machines or Macs yet is a very popular CHOICE of browser. IOS we have no choice and forced to to use Safari.
- alphabettsy 6y ago
  I don’t know about you, but I installed Chrome because it’s apparently what developers optimize for and occasionally I’m forced to use it because of bugs.
  - dybber 6y ago
    I chose not to install Chrome and use Firefox, to ensure the web is not optimized for one company’s desire. Chrome is sprinting ahead with new feature at a high pace, however, we should make sure the web only uses features that are widely available in all major browsers.
- olliej 6y ago
  you mean safari - a minority browser on a minority platform - is a monopoly? There's a browser that has almost absolute domination of the market, chooses what features become standards simply by shipping them, is aggressively anti-competitive, and yet you're complaining about safari?
  - ksec 6y ago
    >you mean safari - a minority browser on a minority platform - is a monopoly? With All due respect, this is a very Apple view. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet. We can debate whether that fit anyone's definition of monopoly. But it is definitely not on a minority platform, nor a minority browser. Safari's current features set doesn't have much problem as a Web Page browser. And wouldn't be a concern if it wasn't for App Store's policy. But when Apple is the majority or dominant platform in a market these can no longer be looked at as an individual case. And will very likely be used as a weapon in AntiTrust issue. To be quite frankly honestly I dislike PWA and Chrome and I wish Safari stay the way it is and only Apps Store changes its policy. But right now Apple seems to be willing to fight that at all cost. And there are no middle ground to balance things out.
mmis1000 6y ago
As a developer, I hate it. Not only because feature lacking. But also because it's so buggy in terms of literally every aspect. It don't really actually properly implemented all spec from web 2.0 properly. Bugs comes out from everywhere for no reason. Supports it is just like rewrite the whole page again with no really payoff.

julianlam 6y ago

> Edge teams What happened with Edge? I've been out of the loop with MS stuff for years, and last I heard you had to select a browser in the EU or something, but was this also made mandatory worldwide? I'd imagine still being bundled with Windows means their usage is not insignificant...

Nextgrid 6y ago
Edge is now just a rebranded Chromium, and Microsoft's approach with Windows 10 suggests they are betting big on advertising and the "attention economy" thus very unlikely to push towards privacy protection.
- userbinator 6y ago
  They are also adopting the "user herding" trend --- taking away choices and control, bludgeoning the userbase into docile and obedient consumers that they can monetise or do whatever else they want to. Take a look at the settings for IE, which actually improved with each new version, and you can clearly see which side MS used to be on. Then compare it with the useless dumbed-down "modern" UI of even pre-Chromium Edge.
bleachedsleet 6y ago
Edge is now a Chromium fork
- julianlam 6y ago
  Ah, thank you. I must've missed this rather large change...
aeontech 6y ago
I think the parent is referring to the fact that MS abandoned their browser engine and Edge is now running on Chromium as of Jan 2020.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Edge is now a Chromium fork, and is headed by an ex-Googler who cheerfully me-toos every Google web agenda. It's sole purpose is to be a Chrome browser that connects to Microsoft accounts and hence can integrate with Microsoft's enterprise tools. Despite enterprise teams already finding Chrome's six week release cycle tedious, Microsoft immediately followed Chrome to announcing their four week cycle in the last week, and Edge also failed to protect ad blocking by rejecting the Manifest V3 changes for browser extensions designed to cripple ad blockers. Basically, at any opportunity Microsoft has had to differentiate itself, it has decided to just do what Google does.
- dialtone 6y ago
  One day ycombinator will be full of people that talk after informing themselves, but that day is not today. The Chromium Edge doesn’t support 3rd party cookies already and thus isn’t really subject to targeted ads like Safari or Firefox. Now please continue with your reasoning.
  - HDMI_Cable 6y ago
    I’m not an expert on this, but aren’t there other ways to track users (like fingerprinting based on extensions)?
    - Jcowell 6y ago
      Yes but it doesn’t really matter. If you’re using edge chromium , you’re probably using it on the platform it runs best on anyway, that already would probably do it all anyway.
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    I feel like someone just gave you a laundry list of problems, and you lifted a sock off the pile and acted like you had finished the lot...
- hyperrail 6y ago
  The Edge team - first engineering alone, now both eng. and product - has been led for 3 years by Rajesh Sundaram, a Microsoft lifer who has never worked for Google. [1] And Chromium-based Edge has tracking prevention through filter lists, while Chrome does not. [2] Microsoft is no one's privacy hero these days, I will concede that. But some of these specific claims are just wrong. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajeshsu https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajeshsu [2] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/learn-about-tracking-prevention-in-microsoft-edge-5ac125e8-9b90-8d59-fa2c-7f2e9a44d869 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/learn-abo...

meibo 6y ago

"Not following sensible standards to protect your own App Store monopoly and being a pain in the ass to work with due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox)" is not a good base to build a defense against a monopoly on.

DangitBobby 6y ago
Saying they don't get rendering "right" implies they aren't following standards. Is Firefox not standards compliant?
- fragile_frogs 6y ago
  iOS only allows webkit based browsers, thus every browser on iOS pretty much just a skinned Safari
  - DangitBobby 6y ago
    > due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox) Singling Firefox out by saying "even Firefox" makes me think you don't expect Firefox to "get it right." I am wondering why that is.
EvilEy3 6y ago
Being asshole for the sake of keeping a far worse asshole from being in total power is.

dmitryminkovsky 6y ago

I agree. And it's sort of perverse, isn't it? At least they’ll have extensions soon (or they do, already?) so it’ll become more usable. I would gladly use Safari on desktop, too. The graphics are excellent, which is one of the reasons I’m excited about https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri

adrr 6y ago

People choose to install chrome it doesn't come with Windows Machines or Macs yet is a very popular CHOICE of browser. IOS we have no choice and forced to to use Safari.

alphabettsy 6y ago
I don’t know about you, but I installed Chrome because it’s apparently what developers optimize for and occasionally I’m forced to use it because of bugs.
- dybber 6y ago
  I chose not to install Chrome and use Firefox, to ensure the web is not optimized for one company’s desire. Chrome is sprinting ahead with new feature at a high pace, however, we should make sure the web only uses features that are widely available in all major browsers.
olliej 6y ago
you mean safari - a minority browser on a minority platform - is a monopoly? There's a browser that has almost absolute domination of the market, chooses what features become standards simply by shipping them, is aggressively anti-competitive, and yet you're complaining about safari?
- ksec 6y ago
  >you mean safari - a minority browser on a minority platform - is a monopoly? With All due respect, this is a very Apple view. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet. We can debate whether that fit anyone's definition of monopoly. But it is definitely not on a minority platform, nor a minority browser. Safari's current features set doesn't have much problem as a Web Page browser. And wouldn't be a concern if it wasn't for App Store's policy. But when Apple is the majority or dominant platform in a market these can no longer be looked at as an individual case. And will very likely be used as a weapon in AntiTrust issue. To be quite frankly honestly I dislike PWA and Chrome and I wish Safari stay the way it is and only Apps Store changes its policy. But right now Apple seems to be willing to fight that at all cost. And there are no middle ground to balance things out.

mmis1000 6y ago

As a developer, I hate it. Not only because feature lacking. But also because it's so buggy in terms of literally every aspect. It don't really actually properly implemented all spec from web 2.0 properly. Bugs comes out from everywhere for no reason. Supports it is just like rewrite the whole page again with no really payoff.