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An abstraction (OAM) On the top of an abstraction (K8s Custom Object specification) On the top of an abstraction (Kubernetes, et.al.) On top of another abstr

An abstraction (OAM) On the top of an abstraction (K8s Custom Object specification) On the top of an abstraction (Kubernetes, et.al.) On top of another abstraction (Containers) On top of another abstraction (VMs) I wonder if the Dyke-sealing-boy is available for the inevitable leaks? On a slightly more serious note, even though I participated in OAM early in the process, I've never really seen the value in the abstraction it provides, especially since it's using the Kubernetes Custom Object Model to run on Kubernetes (first, not only, I know).

jjacobson93 6y ago
Computer science is all about abstractions. You can keep on going down with your examples: VMs are an abstraction on top of an operating system, which is an abstraction on top of virtual memory, on top of a physical machine... Just like Python is an abstraction on top of C, which is an abstraction on top of assembly language, which is an abstraction of a CPU and memory, etc. There’s reasons for all of the abstractions.
nine_k 6y ago
Abstraction is what powers IT, what allows it to scale as immensely as it did. It hides the irrelevant details, handles it for you. Abstraction is not always expensive, except at wrapping your head around it. (Though in the case of Kubernetes, the runtime and operations cost may be noticeable.)
linkdd 6y ago
Imagine a developer: > On top of another abstraction (VMs) Who does not need to badly handle infrastructure > On top of another abstraction (Containers) Who does not need to badly handle isolation > On the top of an abstraction (Kubernetes, et.al.) Who does not need to badly handle scalability > On the top of an abstraction (K8s Custom Object specification) Who does not need to badly handle deployment > An abstraction (OAM) Who just wants to ship their code
- tmpz22 6y ago
  > Who just wants to ship their code That exists, its called a PaaS. Kubernetes was not meant to be a PaaS. I'm starting to think people create these orgs to forward their own career, products, or companies.
  - linkdd 6y ago
    > its called a PaaS You mean like Heroku? Kubernetes allows your ops and developers to collaborate and scale and avoid vendor lock-in. How does a PaaS (like Heroku?) allows that?
    - tmpz22 6y ago
      K8s is one of many options to collaborate and scale applications and for many organizations it is not the best option. It also comes with lots of vendor lock-in if you're using a service like GKE, EKS, or AKE, or integrate with any of their loadbalancer or storage solutions! Oracle and Alibaba building a large abstraction on top of kubernetes, to do something kubernetes was not designed to do (though capable of doing), is not the direction I personally believe distributed systems development should standardize around. There are tons of self-hosted PaaS options that are not built on top of massive abstractions and provide better functionality to their users. Since you mentioned Heroku i'll mention https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku.
      - linkdd 6y ago
        Yes K8s is one of many options, but one that can translate to many situations. I'd still choose it over anything else when I need more than a `docker run` on a server. Thanks for the link btw.
        tmpz22 6y ago
        No worries and maybe I am being harsh here but this whole thing seems like a couple big providers trying to push their own idioms on the DevOps industry, an industry which is already saturated on dishonest marketing kool-aid. "Our solution is way better then all those pre-existing solutions!". No. No it isn't. Stop acting like you're helping me when you're really selling me something.
jimmyed 6y ago
Reminds me of SICP.
- fengjingchao 6y ago
  If we all use LISP the whole tech stack would be much simpler :)
  - resouer 6y ago
    Agree. I must thank OSI layers model, so I don't need to program against TCP packets ...
resouer 6y ago
Complaining OAM should not be implemented on K8s doesn't make sense to me. Kubernetes is NOT a PaaS, it's by design for you to create abstractions atop and serve your own purposes. And OAM is a great option if you want to build things like app PaaS or app delivery systems with k8s. It seems you either have mis-understanding on OAM or Kubernetes, based on you are involved in OAM, it's likely the later case.

jjacobson93 6y ago

Computer science is all about abstractions. You can keep on going down with your examples: VMs are an abstraction on top of an operating system, which is an abstraction on top of virtual memory, on top of a physical machine... Just like Python is an abstraction on top of C, which is an abstraction on top of assembly language, which is an abstraction of a CPU and memory, etc. There’s reasons for all of the abstractions.

nine_k 6y ago

Abstraction is what powers IT, what allows it to scale as immensely as it did. It hides the irrelevant details, handles it for you. Abstraction is not always expensive, except at wrapping your head around it. (Though in the case of Kubernetes, the runtime and operations cost may be noticeable.)

linkdd 6y ago

Imagine a developer: > On top of another abstraction (VMs) Who does not need to badly handle infrastructure > On top of another abstraction (Containers) Who does not need to badly handle isolation > On the top of an abstraction (Kubernetes, et.al.) Who does not need to badly handle scalability > On the top of an abstraction (K8s Custom Object specification) Who does not need to badly handle deployment > An abstraction (OAM) Who just wants to ship their code

tmpz22 6y ago
> Who just wants to ship their code That exists, its called a PaaS. Kubernetes was not meant to be a PaaS. I'm starting to think people create these orgs to forward their own career, products, or companies.
- linkdd 6y ago
  > its called a PaaS You mean like Heroku? Kubernetes allows your ops and developers to collaborate and scale and avoid vendor lock-in. How does a PaaS (like Heroku?) allows that?
  - tmpz22 6y ago
    K8s is one of many options to collaborate and scale applications and for many organizations it is not the best option. It also comes with lots of vendor lock-in if you're using a service like GKE, EKS, or AKE, or integrate with any of their loadbalancer or storage solutions! Oracle and Alibaba building a large abstraction on top of kubernetes, to do something kubernetes was not designed to do (though capable of doing), is not the direction I personally believe distributed systems development should standardize around. There are tons of self-hosted PaaS options that are not built on top of massive abstractions and provide better functionality to their users. Since you mentioned Heroku i'll mention https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku.
    - linkdd 6y ago
      Yes K8s is one of many options, but one that can translate to many situations. I'd still choose it over anything else when I need more than a `docker run` on a server. Thanks for the link btw.
      - tmpz22 6y ago
        No worries and maybe I am being harsh here but this whole thing seems like a couple big providers trying to push their own idioms on the DevOps industry, an industry which is already saturated on dishonest marketing kool-aid. "Our solution is way better then all those pre-existing solutions!". No. No it isn't. Stop acting like you're helping me when you're really selling me something.

jimmyed 6y ago

Reminds me of SICP.

fengjingchao 6y ago
If we all use LISP the whole tech stack would be much simpler :)
- resouer 6y ago
  Agree. I must thank OSI layers model, so I don't need to program against TCP packets ...

resouer 6y ago

Complaining OAM should not be implemented on K8s doesn't make sense to me. Kubernetes is NOT a PaaS, it's by design for you to create abstractions atop and serve your own purposes. And OAM is a great option if you want to build things like app PaaS or app delivery systems with k8s. It seems you either have mis-understanding on OAM or Kubernetes, based on you are involved in OAM, it's likely the later case.