10 ms·

It was done before when they used a inactivated HIV virus to cure a child with leukemia by reprogramming her T cells. She was in the terminal stage of disease

It was done before when they used a inactivated HIV virus to cure a child with leukemia by reprogramming her T cells. She was in the terminal stage of disease so hence the approval of the experimental treatment , we don't know the long term effects or why it did not work consistently in other patients.

oliv__ 6y ago
This is way too smart for me.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
someperson 6y ago
Accessible and reasonably good NYT article: https://archive.md/5nWok https://archive.md/5nWok (https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/health/a-breakthrough-against-leukemia-using-altered-t-cells.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/health/a-breakthrough-aga...) And as of 2019, the patient is still cancer free: https://emilywhiteheadfoundation.org/news/celebrating-7-years-cancer-free-2/ https://emilywhiteheadfoundation.org/news/celebrating-7-year...
- dataflow 6y ago
  A bit off-topic, but any idea how much it costs to get an experimental treatment like this?
  - someperson 6y ago
    The NYT article I linked to actually has two pages. The second page goes into more details on cost. Here's a direct link to both pages of the article: https://archive.md/Fwyo0 https://archive.md/Fwyo0 Here's the relevant quote: > The Pennsylvania researchers said they were surprised to find any big drug company interested in their work, because a new batch of T-cells must be created for each patient — a far cry from the familiar commercial strategy of developing products like Viagra or cholesterol medicines, in which millions of people take the same drug. > But Mr. Hoppenot said Novartis was taking a different path with cancer drugs, looking for treatments that would have a big, unmistakable impact on a small number of patients. Such home-run drugs can be approved more quickly and efficiently, he said, with smaller studies than are needed for drugs with less obvious benefits. > “The economic model is totally acceptable,” Mr. Hoppenot said. > But such drugs tend to be extremely expensive. A prime example is the Novartis drug Gleevec, which won rapid approval in 2001 for use against certain types of leukemia and gastrointestinal tumors. It can cost more than $5,000 a month, depending on the dosage. > Dr. June said that producing engineered T-cells costs about $20,000 per patient — far less than the cost of a bone-marrow transplant. Scaling up the procedure should make it even less expensive, he said, but he added, “Our costs do not include any profit margin, facility depreciation costs or other clinical care costs, and other research costs.”
    - dataflow 6y ago
      Wow, thanks! $20k is lower than I expected! I guess when they add in the other costs it will be a fair bit higher, but still.
      - justinclift 6y ago
        Might still be reasonably priced if/when it's available in countries other than the US? Specifically, countries that don't have a broken extremely-overinflated-pricing model for health care.
      - someperson 6y ago
        Yeah $20,000 seems very cheap for such a treatment. Also there are biohackers who synthesize their own insulin and even COVID-19 vaccines and test it on themselves. Their work may cause them more harm than good, but it's their bodies and they're free to experiment on it however they choose. When somebody has a terminal illness and is facing imminent death the risk calculus is very different where even taking the bargain basement biohacker version of a medication may make sense. (Though obviously this particular treatment is a bit different because it uses a modified HIV virus)
        tkinom 6y ago
        Software Define Drug? Similar to Software Define Radio. Not sure if it good or bad...
      - refurb 6y ago
        CAR-T (programmed t-cells for blood cancer) are around $400-500k not including the cost of harvesting and implanting them back into the patient.
wyxuan 6y ago
They're trying to do a cancer vaccine, not treatment for those afflicted with cancer already
- DarknessFalls 6y ago
  How would a cancer vaccine work? A mRNA-based proofreader?
  - alephnil 6y ago
    A cancer vaccine would work by priming the immune system to target the proteins that is mutated in the tumor cells, and killing the cells producing them. In fact, the body does this regularly. Cells frequently mutate to divide uncontrollably in the body, but are nearly always suppressed by the immune system. It is only when the tumor somehow manage to bypass the immune system or the immune system is sufficiently weakened that cancers can spread.
- leoedin 6y ago
  It is a treatment for people with cancer. The mRNA cancer vaccine they're developing is for people who already have cancer. It's targeted based on the specific tumour the patient has, and basically primes the immune system to attack the cancer cells. They can't even develop the vaccine until the patient has the cancer it's fighting against.
  - geeB 6y ago
    How does this work? In the case of Covid, I understand (for some value of "understand") how they can make the cells create virus proteins, which then train the immune system without an actual infection to be ready for when the real virus strikes. But if someone already has cancer cells, wouldn't all the proteins to train against already be in the body in the first place?
    - Tagbert 6y ago
      The proteins are present but the immune system does not see them as “foreign”. The vaccine primes the immune system to see them as a foreign attacker.

oliv__ 6y ago

This is way too smart for me.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

someperson 6y ago

Accessible and reasonably good NYT article: https://archive.md/5nWok https://archive.md/5nWok (https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/health/a-breakthrough-against-leukemia-using-altered-t-cells.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/health/a-breakthrough-aga...) And as of 2019, the patient is still cancer free: https://emilywhiteheadfoundation.org/news/celebrating-7-years-cancer-free-2/ https://emilywhiteheadfoundation.org/news/celebrating-7-year...

dataflow 6y ago
A bit off-topic, but any idea how much it costs to get an experimental treatment like this?
- someperson 6y ago
  The NYT article I linked to actually has two pages. The second page goes into more details on cost. Here's a direct link to both pages of the article: https://archive.md/Fwyo0 https://archive.md/Fwyo0 Here's the relevant quote: > The Pennsylvania researchers said they were surprised to find any big drug company interested in their work, because a new batch of T-cells must be created for each patient — a far cry from the familiar commercial strategy of developing products like Viagra or cholesterol medicines, in which millions of people take the same drug. > But Mr. Hoppenot said Novartis was taking a different path with cancer drugs, looking for treatments that would have a big, unmistakable impact on a small number of patients. Such home-run drugs can be approved more quickly and efficiently, he said, with smaller studies than are needed for drugs with less obvious benefits. > “The economic model is totally acceptable,” Mr. Hoppenot said. > But such drugs tend to be extremely expensive. A prime example is the Novartis drug Gleevec, which won rapid approval in 2001 for use against certain types of leukemia and gastrointestinal tumors. It can cost more than $5,000 a month, depending on the dosage. > Dr. June said that producing engineered T-cells costs about $20,000 per patient — far less than the cost of a bone-marrow transplant. Scaling up the procedure should make it even less expensive, he said, but he added, “Our costs do not include any profit margin, facility depreciation costs or other clinical care costs, and other research costs.”
  - dataflow 6y ago
    Wow, thanks! $20k is lower than I expected! I guess when they add in the other costs it will be a fair bit higher, but still.
    - justinclift 6y ago
      Might still be reasonably priced if/when it's available in countries other than the US? Specifically, countries that don't have a broken extremely-overinflated-pricing model for health care.
    - someperson 6y ago
      Yeah $20,000 seems very cheap for such a treatment. Also there are biohackers who synthesize their own insulin and even COVID-19 vaccines and test it on themselves. Their work may cause them more harm than good, but it's their bodies and they're free to experiment on it however they choose. When somebody has a terminal illness and is facing imminent death the risk calculus is very different where even taking the bargain basement biohacker version of a medication may make sense. (Though obviously this particular treatment is a bit different because it uses a modified HIV virus)
      - tkinom 6y ago
        Software Define Drug? Similar to Software Define Radio. Not sure if it good or bad...
    - refurb 6y ago
      CAR-T (programmed t-cells for blood cancer) are around $400-500k not including the cost of harvesting and implanting them back into the patient.

wyxuan 6y ago

They're trying to do a cancer vaccine, not treatment for those afflicted with cancer already

DarknessFalls 6y ago
How would a cancer vaccine work? A mRNA-based proofreader?
- alephnil 6y ago
  A cancer vaccine would work by priming the immune system to target the proteins that is mutated in the tumor cells, and killing the cells producing them. In fact, the body does this regularly. Cells frequently mutate to divide uncontrollably in the body, but are nearly always suppressed by the immune system. It is only when the tumor somehow manage to bypass the immune system or the immune system is sufficiently weakened that cancers can spread.
leoedin 6y ago
It is a treatment for people with cancer. The mRNA cancer vaccine they're developing is for people who already have cancer. It's targeted based on the specific tumour the patient has, and basically primes the immune system to attack the cancer cells. They can't even develop the vaccine until the patient has the cancer it's fighting against.
- geeB 6y ago
  How does this work? In the case of Covid, I understand (for some value of "understand") how they can make the cells create virus proteins, which then train the immune system without an actual infection to be ready for when the real virus strikes. But if someone already has cancer cells, wouldn't all the proteins to train against already be in the body in the first place?
  - Tagbert 6y ago
    The proteins are present but the immune system does not see them as “foreign”. The vaccine primes the immune system to see them as a foreign attacker.