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I'm sure many people here have experienced frustration helping older relatives or friends use computers. Recently though, I realized, that computers are just w

I'm sure many people here have experienced frustration helping older relatives or friends use computers. Recently though, I realized, that computers are just way too hard to use. In our pursuit to avoid cryptic black screens with command prompts, a user must now understand that their computer has Windows with all of its menus and functions, a browser window with all of its menus and functions, running a webapp, with all of its menus and functions. Whenever functionality bleeds into other layers ("how do I print this pdf file"), it is a huge hassle trying to explain "oh, it's not that print button, its this other print button". It makes me sad to think that people prefer their "appliance computers" (phones, tablets, chromebooks) over real computers, but I can hardly blame them.

Macha 6y ago
Even appliance computers are not immune to this. Had an elderly neighbour asking for help after struggling to forward a message sent by one contact on whatsapp to another contact on facebook. Having to explain: > Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp. > And oh look, apparently whatsapp and/or facebook has a bug where you select to share the video and you end up at the whatsapp contact screen but selecting a contact loses the video. > Well I guess you can go into your gallery and share from there. That seems to work. But not every app is going to expose its images in your gallery. And it became clear that even the simple devices aren't.
- pmarreck 6y ago
  > Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp. Back in my day, Apple had something called the Human Interface Guidelines and they adhered to them religiously, and IMHO it made computing a lot more approachable for a neophyte, compared to the mess we have today with "hamburger menus" vs. "triple-dot menus" (REALLY??), no general way to access the settings of any app, no general way to do anything really save for typing in text (and sometimes not even then!) Instagram and Snapchat (the worst offender here, you literally won't learn some inputs unless someone tells you about them!) have not made anything better.
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    besides some apps that do weird stuff, there is always a button to open settings, isn't there? Or is that just android?
ghaff 6y ago
What a lot of people here don't get is that many people have zero interest in using a computer. They want to talk on the phone, order from Amazon, and play solitaire. That's pretty much the sum total of what my dad wants to use his computer/smartphone for. He has absolutely zero interest in learning how file systems work, the intricacies of networks, or anything else about the underlying plumbing that allows him to do the things he wants to do. I'd add that many of us have internalized how to use phones/tablets over time as they've become incrementally more complex. I still never remember all the details of having multiple windows open on a tablet given I don't use that functionality much and I periodically learn some trick I never knew about.
orblivion 6y ago
I feel like someone should try to start from scratch and design a phone interface that any elderly person would be perfectly comfortable using and understanding. And then sell it to the rest of us as well.
- slantyyz 6y ago
  I can't emphasize how much this needs to be done (granted, the population in the age group that needs it the most is shrinking). The current seniors phone are utter crap. I've tried a bunch for my dad. My dad, 80+, can't figure out how to use a feature phone (I got him a Nokia handset) much less a smartphone (have tried iPhone and Android). The thing is, he has no desire to read a menu, or figure out what an icon means, or what the text under the icon says. He can't even be bothered trying to understand up, down, left, right and OK in terms of navigating a phone's capabilities. What he does know how to use is a land line. He's got a Northern Telecom phone with some pre-programmed numbers, and he seems to have no problem with that at all. He doesn't know how to do voice mail on his phone, but he does know how to use an old school answering machine. If someone can make a phone that behaves more like a traditional phone (i.e., maybe a lid flips so that it's like lifting a phone off the hook, close the lid to hang up), and no send/cancel buttons, I think my dad would be able to figure it out more easily. On a separate note, the reasons above are the same reasons why he can't use a media player on a TV. He only knows the concept of sticking physical media into a player, and using the standard media buttons, and for the TV, he is used to punching in numbers to change the channel. Menu navigation, which is easy for most people under 60, is SO foreign to him.
- freeflight 6y ago
  That interface already exists, even those elderly people will mostly understand a phone with physical buttons and a numerical pad. But once you remove the physical buttons everything becomes much less intuitive and hinges way more on proper UI design in addition to making a lot of assumptions about a users knowledge on touch controls.
slantyyz 6y ago
Imagine being an 80+ senior who doesn't have a computer or Internet and being told that the only way to register for a COVID vaccine is online. That's how our initial rollout was handled (Ontario, Canada).

Macha 6y ago

Even appliance computers are not immune to this. Had an elderly neighbour asking for help after struggling to forward a message sent by one contact on whatsapp to another contact on facebook. Having to explain: > Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp. > And oh look, apparently whatsapp and/or facebook has a bug where you select to share the video and you end up at the whatsapp contact screen but selecting a contact loses the video. > Well I guess you can go into your gallery and share from there. That seems to work. But not every app is going to expose its images in your gallery. And it became clear that even the simple devices aren't.

pmarreck 6y ago
> Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp. Back in my day, Apple had something called the Human Interface Guidelines and they adhered to them religiously, and IMHO it made computing a lot more approachable for a neophyte, compared to the mess we have today with "hamburger menus" vs. "triple-dot menus" (REALLY??), no general way to access the settings of any app, no general way to do anything really save for typing in text (and sometimes not even then!) Instagram and Snapchat (the worst offender here, you literally won't learn some inputs unless someone tells you about them!) have not made anything better.
- Semaphor 6y ago
  besides some apps that do weird stuff, there is always a button to open settings, isn't there? Or is that just android?

ghaff 6y ago

What a lot of people here don't get is that many people have zero interest in using a computer. They want to talk on the phone, order from Amazon, and play solitaire. That's pretty much the sum total of what my dad wants to use his computer/smartphone for. He has absolutely zero interest in learning how file systems work, the intricacies of networks, or anything else about the underlying plumbing that allows him to do the things he wants to do. I'd add that many of us have internalized how to use phones/tablets over time as they've become incrementally more complex. I still never remember all the details of having multiple windows open on a tablet given I don't use that functionality much and I periodically learn some trick I never knew about.

orblivion 6y ago

I feel like someone should try to start from scratch and design a phone interface that any elderly person would be perfectly comfortable using and understanding. And then sell it to the rest of us as well.

slantyyz 6y ago
I can't emphasize how much this needs to be done (granted, the population in the age group that needs it the most is shrinking). The current seniors phone are utter crap. I've tried a bunch for my dad. My dad, 80+, can't figure out how to use a feature phone (I got him a Nokia handset) much less a smartphone (have tried iPhone and Android). The thing is, he has no desire to read a menu, or figure out what an icon means, or what the text under the icon says. He can't even be bothered trying to understand up, down, left, right and OK in terms of navigating a phone's capabilities. What he does know how to use is a land line. He's got a Northern Telecom phone with some pre-programmed numbers, and he seems to have no problem with that at all. He doesn't know how to do voice mail on his phone, but he does know how to use an old school answering machine. If someone can make a phone that behaves more like a traditional phone (i.e., maybe a lid flips so that it's like lifting a phone off the hook, close the lid to hang up), and no send/cancel buttons, I think my dad would be able to figure it out more easily. On a separate note, the reasons above are the same reasons why he can't use a media player on a TV. He only knows the concept of sticking physical media into a player, and using the standard media buttons, and for the TV, he is used to punching in numbers to change the channel. Menu navigation, which is easy for most people under 60, is SO foreign to him.
freeflight 6y ago
That interface already exists, even those elderly people will mostly understand a phone with physical buttons and a numerical pad. But once you remove the physical buttons everything becomes much less intuitive and hinges way more on proper UI design in addition to making a lot of assumptions about a users knowledge on touch controls.

slantyyz 6y ago

Imagine being an 80+ senior who doesn't have a computer or Internet and being told that the only way to register for a COVID vaccine is online. That's how our initial rollout was handled (Ontario, Canada).