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Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s

Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services. People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving the limited in person and call staff to handle the rare cases who need them. The mistake here was that the person was only informed of the online version, rather than being told where to go or who to call to handle this offline.

mankyd 6y ago
> We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first I was with you until that statement. If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at. Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour. Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call. So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
  - mankyd 6y ago
    I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed. Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
    - QuercusMax 6y ago
      In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally. It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
      - mankyd 6y ago
        >In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. > Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems. Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
        nicoburns 6y ago
        > Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. We could set it up so that everybody does. Public libraries have traditionally been great at this, although they could certainly do with more funding.
drewzero1 6y ago
Online-first and even online-only services seem to be happening more often this year while in-person offices are shut down or restricted. I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in. I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.
TrueGeek 6y ago
> Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well. Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only. [1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/?fbclid=IwAR1LvT_d06YmWHCIb11G79BnSq2HfFqhhjvi0-_5uC5wi5tlqyQOH6QXUoY https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi... [2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/appointments-for-the-london-federal-benefits-unit/ https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
- alibarber 6y ago
  This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village. I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
  - tallanvor 6y ago
    Please keep in mind that some expats have been living overseas for 60+ years. They shouldn't be expected to know more about technology for any other senior citizen.
  - TrueGeek 6y ago
    Very true. For 99% of cases I would guess they're dealing with expats who didn't get a check or have a question about medicare coverage. The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12) But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".
hn8788 6y ago
I can vouch for how strict they are about their accessibility requirements. I was working for a contracting company that was making training materials and teaching a class for the government, and all the material had to have a voice recording for blind employees, even though that particular job we were teaching for couldn't be done by blind people. We also had to provide a script of everything that was covered and wasn't on the slides in case a deaf person was in the class. It made it difficult to teach the class because the instructor couldn't cover anything that wasn't in the written script, or else it would be considered discrimination against the deaf employees.
taxidump 6y ago
In the US, I was in a government office a few days ago because I was told that if instead of uploaded documents via a website and waiting 10-45 days to have them reviewed I could go into a local office and provide these documents and they would review them on-site. So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office. While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents. My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents. Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  I've had this experience with better results. I had a tax issue that I tried to resolve via phone, email, and paper mail for over a year. Finally went to the local office and they resolved it on the spot in 10 minutes.
- blktiger 6y ago
  Be glad they don't allow emailing important documents, they certainly wouldn't encrypt them if they did.
  - lozaning 6y ago
    I had to drop off a bunch of property tax documents for the city assessor in a tier 1 city. There was just a cardbox box in a hallway with a sign taped to it 'Homestead Applications'. I could have taken all the other applications out of the box when I put mine in if i wanted to. Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.
lurquer 6y ago
Ah, yes... they’re available, they say. Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers: —————- “But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.” “Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.” “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

mankyd 6y ago

> We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first I was with you until that statement. If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at. Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.

alpaca128 6y ago
A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour. Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call. So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
- mankyd 6y ago
  I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed. Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
  - QuercusMax 6y ago
    In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally. It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
    - mankyd 6y ago
      >In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. > Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems. Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
      - nicoburns 6y ago
        > Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. We could set it up so that everybody does. Public libraries have traditionally been great at this, although they could certainly do with more funding.

drewzero1 6y ago

Online-first and even online-only services seem to be happening more often this year while in-person offices are shut down or restricted. I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in. I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.

TrueGeek 6y ago

> Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well. Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only. [1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/?fbclid=IwAR1LvT_d06YmWHCIb11G79BnSq2HfFqhhjvi0-_5uC5wi5tlqyQOH6QXUoY https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi... [2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/appointments-for-the-london-federal-benefits-unit/ https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...

alibarber 6y ago
This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village. I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
- tallanvor 6y ago
  Please keep in mind that some expats have been living overseas for 60+ years. They shouldn't be expected to know more about technology for any other senior citizen.
- TrueGeek 6y ago
  Very true. For 99% of cases I would guess they're dealing with expats who didn't get a check or have a question about medicare coverage. The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12) But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".

hn8788 6y ago

I can vouch for how strict they are about their accessibility requirements. I was working for a contracting company that was making training materials and teaching a class for the government, and all the material had to have a voice recording for blind employees, even though that particular job we were teaching for couldn't be done by blind people. We also had to provide a script of everything that was covered and wasn't on the slides in case a deaf person was in the class. It made it difficult to teach the class because the instructor couldn't cover anything that wasn't in the written script, or else it would be considered discrimination against the deaf employees.

taxidump 6y ago

In the US, I was in a government office a few days ago because I was told that if instead of uploaded documents via a website and waiting 10-45 days to have them reviewed I could go into a local office and provide these documents and they would review them on-site. So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office. While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents. My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents. Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.

throwawayboise 6y ago
I've had this experience with better results. I had a tax issue that I tried to resolve via phone, email, and paper mail for over a year. Finally went to the local office and they resolved it on the spot in 10 minutes.
blktiger 6y ago
Be glad they don't allow emailing important documents, they certainly wouldn't encrypt them if they did.
- lozaning 6y ago
  I had to drop off a bunch of property tax documents for the city assessor in a tier 1 city. There was just a cardbox box in a hallway with a sign taped to it 'Homestead Applications'. I could have taken all the other applications out of the box when I put mine in if i wanted to. Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.

lurquer 6y ago

Ah, yes... they’re available, they say. Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers: —————- “But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.” “Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.” “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”