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Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assu

Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption. I think this has two big benefits: - Minor point: Greater resilience to downtime, interruptions to service - Major point: a check on becoming a faceless entity with no exposure to the public. Think Google or FB if you get flagged. If there's a number you can call or an office you can go to and a guarantee of service via those modalities, it provides at least a modicum of accountability.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
The ship has already sailed on the major point. It really doesn't help that both the high level administrators, the unions and a non-trivial amount of the public push things in the direction of bureaucrats just being cogs in the machine with no agency.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services. People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving the limited in person and call staff to handle the rare cases who need them. The mistake here was that the person was only informed of the online version, rather than being told where to go or who to call to handle this offline.
- mankyd 6y ago
  > We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first I was with you until that statement. If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at. Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.
  - alpaca128 6y ago
    A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour. Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call. So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
    - mankyd 6y ago
      I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed. Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
      - QuercusMax 6y ago
        In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally. It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
        mankyd 6y ago
        >In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. > Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems. Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
- drewzero1 6y ago
  Online-first and even online-only services seem to be happening more often this year while in-person offices are shut down or restricted. I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in. I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.
- TrueGeek 6y ago
  > Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well. Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only. [1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/?fbclid=IwAR1LvT_d06YmWHCIb11G79BnSq2HfFqhhjvi0-_5uC5wi5tlqyQOH6QXUoY https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi... [2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/appointments-for-the-london-federal-benefits-unit/ https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
  - alibarber 6y ago
    This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village. I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
    - tallanvor 6y ago
      Please keep in mind that some expats have been living overseas for 60+ years. They shouldn't be expected to know more about technology for any other senior citizen.
    - TrueGeek 6y ago
      Very true. For 99% of cases I would guess they're dealing with expats who didn't get a check or have a question about medicare coverage. The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12) But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".
- hn8788 6y ago
  I can vouch for how strict they are about their accessibility requirements. I was working for a contracting company that was making training materials and teaching a class for the government, and all the material had to have a voice recording for blind employees, even though that particular job we were teaching for couldn't be done by blind people. We also had to provide a script of everything that was covered and wasn't on the slides in case a deaf person was in the class. It made it difficult to teach the class because the instructor couldn't cover anything that wasn't in the written script, or else it would be considered discrimination against the deaf employees.
- taxidump 6y ago
  In the US, I was in a government office a few days ago because I was told that if instead of uploaded documents via a website and waiting 10-45 days to have them reviewed I could go into a local office and provide these documents and they would review them on-site. So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office. While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents. My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents. Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    I've had this experience with better results. I had a tax issue that I tried to resolve via phone, email, and paper mail for over a year. Finally went to the local office and they resolved it on the spot in 10 minutes.
  - blktiger 6y ago
    Be glad they don't allow emailing important documents, they certainly wouldn't encrypt them if they did.
    - lozaning 6y ago
      I had to drop off a bunch of property tax documents for the city assessor in a tier 1 city. There was just a cardbox box in a hallway with a sign taped to it 'Homestead Applications'. I could have taken all the other applications out of the box when I put mine in if i wanted to. Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.
- lurquer 6y ago
  Ah, yes... they’re available, they say. Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers: —————- “But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.” “Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.” “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”
tim333 6y ago
I guess both is the way to go though I'm not sure paper form filling produced much accountability. Being able to contact humans is good though especially for edge cases and screwups.
- WJW 6y ago
  Indeed. There's a reason "Kafkaesque" was a word long before the internet existed.
Verdex 6y ago
I think it makes accountability easier as well. And this is actually the reason why I don't do online billing as much as possible. A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than: Me: your honor, I swear I paid them Corp: our computer thingy says you didn't. also it's a tangle of 50 different sql databases, so we'll never know the truth for sure Similarly, if you have a bunch of paper showing that you did something with respect to the government that feels safer than officers showing up to your house because a database upgrade went sideways. Something is traceable. There's an artifact that can be used to reconstruct what really happened. And the government needing forms can be useful too. If an internal auditor (or reporter or something) shows up and finds a bunch of filled out forms in the trash or they see that some forms are intentionally not replenished, then they can bust some skulls. However, on the other hand if things are just "lol the computer says you can't have freedoms and liberty" then maybe it's because of a bug with respect to the hyphen in your last name or maybe it's because someone is persecuting you illegally, but nobody can prove anything and there's no trail to follow.
- mindcrime 6y ago
  A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than: I do agree with this sentiment, but I would like to point out that one can achieve the same effect (or very nearly so) by saving the "receipt" page or confirmation page that you usually get with online transactions. You could either save a directory full of PDF's and only print them out if there actually is a need for them in court, or you could even print them as you encounter them and build up that "big stack of papers" over time. Yes this imposes extra friction, which does suck, but it's something.
  - Verdex 6y ago
    Yeah, this is true. But I personally like having paper that the corporation printed out versus something that I printed out. Like, technically, you can fake the "receipt" page because it's just some html etc. The only thing that proves that what you have is real is the confirmation number and suddenly you're back to hoping that the corporation that asserts you owe them money has and will provide all of their sql databases so that you can show that your confirmation number is genuine. On the other hand, if I have years of documents they produced and the styles and layout, paper quality, postal records, etc all match what everyone else has in their homes, then, yeah, it could still be faked, but it's a much harder pill for a judge to swallow. Like, at some point people are going to decide that you're either telling the truth or you are a super genius with way too much time on your hands. Either way they're going to tend towards letting you off the hook.
dqx 6y ago
> Unpopular opinion: I think This part of the comment doesn't add anything. We can leave "I kNoW I'lL bE dOwNvOtEd BuT..." on reddit.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
A lot of people don't have reliable internet access still.
nickysielicki 6y ago
My drivers license expires later this year, which is the first time that I have ever needed to renew it. Due to COVID, my license could be renewed online. I did it last night. The problem? I couldn’t update any of my info from when I was 16 unless I went in person. What this ultimately means is that I will be 34 when this new license expires, using a baby faced teenage photo from 18 years prior, with physical descriptions that are out of date and inaccurate. Oh well.
- Arrath 6y ago
  Same here. I'm nearing 32, with a baby-faced ill-advised high school ponytail headshot on my license.
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  Was it not an option to go in person?
  - nickysielicki 6y ago
    No, I could have gone in-person if I wanted. But who wants to take an hour out of their day to go to the DMV? What do I care if my government-issued ID is inaccurate? That's their problem.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - raunak 6y ago
      It could also potentially be your problem. What if an officer pulls you over and has to compare current you to your ID? Could be cause for trouble.
duckfang 6y ago
> Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption. The converse is that the government should provide free internet access to all citizens and immigrants, IF that is the primary way to communicate with the govt. I also reject that "mail is an option" when mail takes 6-8 weeks to get to a federal/state inbox, and takes that much time back. Even contacts at agencies I work with have me send DVDs to their contractors to bypass federal months-long delays in sending required resources.
- cratermoon 6y ago
  Also there should be programs to re-integrate prisoners after incarceration, or just generally give them better access to be able to keep up with the outside world.
  - duckfang 6y ago
    Absolutely. But I'm also a realist that realizes that States have de-prioritized Covid vaccines purely because of optics placed above public health. https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andrew-cuomos-refusal-to-vaccinate-inmates-is-indefensible https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andr... https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2021/01/05/prioritizing-prisoners-for-vaccines-stirs-controversy https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta... Because of that, any plans that try to to help everyone MUST have no exceptions for offenders. In that way, it would have a better chance to pass since it doesn't directly call out offenders.
  - cestith 6y ago
    There should also be a lot less carcerial punishment. We overuse the prison system. Far too much of that is due to either minimum sentencing laws the judges and even prosecutors tend to hate and to line the pockets of private prisons or private corporations servicing public prisons and inmates.
JustSomeNobody 6y ago
I agree. I also think that if Government keeps pushing everything to the internet, then the internet needs to be a utility.
varispeed 6y ago
I feel the opposite - any contact should be online only and traceable - this will minimise surface area where the corruption could creep in as any conversation prior to the decisions could be audited. You know there will be no table to slide the money under.
EGreg 6y ago
UK thinks like you https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281
skeeter2020 6y ago
Well the problem with this in Canada is that it's not a binary decision between paper forms from an office and submitting a web form; there are a bunch of in-between technologies that also need to be supported: fax machines, order paper forms via an automated telephone system, file by phone, fill out a PDF, print and mail - how do you decide when you can phase out any or all of these? Also counter-intuitively, a physical office you can visit or phone number where you're on hold for an hour plus, and need to access between 9am-4pm, M-F could actually be less accessible for a huge portion of society compared to 24/7 web forms. If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?
- southerntofu 6y ago
  > If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that? That is a big problem. But in my experience, we always manage somehow, if only by mandating someone else to do it for us. The level of unaccountability reached with online services here in France during COVID times is incredible. At least when we had physical places to go, i could always have someone face-to-face to have an argument about why the hell the system is broken. Now this is not an option anymore...
dr-detroit 6y ago
Popular opinion: I don't want to pay the tax bill for your ubiquitous comfort.
boatsie 6y ago
As far as your minor point, it is likely the person behind the desk will be looking at basically the same interface you would be online, then just typing things in for you. So if there is a service interruption, it’s likely they would also be saying “Sorry, our systems are down.”
dfgdghdf 6y ago
Agreed! And if government services do go online only, then I think the government is obligated to provide free internet access and training to those who can't afford it, in the same way that they provide roads and legal defense.
glitchc 6y ago
Offline-first or offline-only can be a major barrier to accessibility. Those who cannot travel (due to a disability) or cannot travel far (due to cost) are disadvantaged. Offering services online is a major game-changer for such folks.
- kube-system 6y ago
  This is a reason why an accessible national mail system is also a good thing.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Right now the right to live and work of many EU citizens can only be applied for electronically and proven only through a webpage. If that database field ever goes from 'true' to 'false' they will be fired, deported and never allowed into the country again.
alexashka 6y ago
You've forgotten to include cost, in your cost/benefit analysis. That's kind of important.
k__ 6y ago
Popular opinion: I think governments should invest at least a mangitude more money into adult education and life long learning should be normalized. Situations like the one mentioned here shouldn't happen.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
offtop5 6y ago
Agreed , it's not a bad idea to always have an offline backup system just in case. Like if you're filing for unemployment, you can only do that via the government, you can't just go to a different unemployment office. So having a way to send in the form manually is always a surefire thing. Even if it just gets digitized later, that's more than enough to prevent something like an oracle system's downtime stopping hundreds of thousands of people filing for benefits
bluSCALE4 6y ago
I've found that the govt can get away with your second major point regardless of an online presence. My example is property taxes in Cook County, IL. Biggest shit show you'll ever experience. I had the board side with me and it took 3 years to get the money back. Keyword is back, money already paid. No number of calls, in person meetings helped. I must have gone there about 6-7 times and nothing.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

The ship has already sailed on the major point. It really doesn't help that both the high level administrators, the unions and a non-trivial amount of the public push things in the direction of bureaucrats just being cogs in the machine with no agency.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services. People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving the limited in person and call staff to handle the rare cases who need them. The mistake here was that the person was only informed of the online version, rather than being told where to go or who to call to handle this offline.

mankyd 6y ago
> We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first I was with you until that statement. If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at. Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour. Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call. So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
  - mankyd 6y ago
    I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed. Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
    - QuercusMax 6y ago
      In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally. It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
      - mankyd 6y ago
        >In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury. > Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems. Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
drewzero1 6y ago
Online-first and even online-only services seem to be happening more often this year while in-person offices are shut down or restricted. I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in. I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.
TrueGeek 6y ago
> Government services are available offline or via phone as well The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country. You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well. Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only. [1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/?fbclid=IwAR1LvT_d06YmWHCIb11G79BnSq2HfFqhhjvi0-_5uC5wi5tlqyQOH6QXUoY https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi... [2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/appointments-for-the-london-federal-benefits-unit/ https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
- alibarber 6y ago
  This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village. I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
  - tallanvor 6y ago
    Please keep in mind that some expats have been living overseas for 60+ years. They shouldn't be expected to know more about technology for any other senior citizen.
  - TrueGeek 6y ago
    Very true. For 99% of cases I would guess they're dealing with expats who didn't get a check or have a question about medicare coverage. The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12) But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".
hn8788 6y ago
I can vouch for how strict they are about their accessibility requirements. I was working for a contracting company that was making training materials and teaching a class for the government, and all the material had to have a voice recording for blind employees, even though that particular job we were teaching for couldn't be done by blind people. We also had to provide a script of everything that was covered and wasn't on the slides in case a deaf person was in the class. It made it difficult to teach the class because the instructor couldn't cover anything that wasn't in the written script, or else it would be considered discrimination against the deaf employees.
taxidump 6y ago
In the US, I was in a government office a few days ago because I was told that if instead of uploaded documents via a website and waiting 10-45 days to have them reviewed I could go into a local office and provide these documents and they would review them on-site. So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office. While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents. My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents. Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  I've had this experience with better results. I had a tax issue that I tried to resolve via phone, email, and paper mail for over a year. Finally went to the local office and they resolved it on the spot in 10 minutes.
- blktiger 6y ago
  Be glad they don't allow emailing important documents, they certainly wouldn't encrypt them if they did.
  - lozaning 6y ago
    I had to drop off a bunch of property tax documents for the city assessor in a tier 1 city. There was just a cardbox box in a hallway with a sign taped to it 'Homestead Applications'. I could have taken all the other applications out of the box when I put mine in if i wanted to. Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.
lurquer 6y ago
Ah, yes... they’re available, they say. Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers: —————- “But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.” “Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.” “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

tim333 6y ago

I guess both is the way to go though I'm not sure paper form filling produced much accountability. Being able to contact humans is good though especially for edge cases and screwups.

WJW 6y ago
Indeed. There's a reason "Kafkaesque" was a word long before the internet existed.

Verdex 6y ago

I think it makes accountability easier as well. And this is actually the reason why I don't do online billing as much as possible. A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than: Me: your honor, I swear I paid them Corp: our computer thingy says you didn't. also it's a tangle of 50 different sql databases, so we'll never know the truth for sure Similarly, if you have a bunch of paper showing that you did something with respect to the government that feels safer than officers showing up to your house because a database upgrade went sideways. Something is traceable. There's an artifact that can be used to reconstruct what really happened. And the government needing forms can be useful too. If an internal auditor (or reporter or something) shows up and finds a bunch of filled out forms in the trash or they see that some forms are intentionally not replenished, then they can bust some skulls. However, on the other hand if things are just "lol the computer says you can't have freedoms and liberty" then maybe it's because of a bug with respect to the hyphen in your last name or maybe it's because someone is persecuting you illegally, but nobody can prove anything and there's no trail to follow.

mindcrime 6y ago
A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than: I do agree with this sentiment, but I would like to point out that one can achieve the same effect (or very nearly so) by saving the "receipt" page or confirmation page that you usually get with online transactions. You could either save a directory full of PDF's and only print them out if there actually is a need for them in court, or you could even print them as you encounter them and build up that "big stack of papers" over time. Yes this imposes extra friction, which does suck, but it's something.
- Verdex 6y ago
  Yeah, this is true. But I personally like having paper that the corporation printed out versus something that I printed out. Like, technically, you can fake the "receipt" page because it's just some html etc. The only thing that proves that what you have is real is the confirmation number and suddenly you're back to hoping that the corporation that asserts you owe them money has and will provide all of their sql databases so that you can show that your confirmation number is genuine. On the other hand, if I have years of documents they produced and the styles and layout, paper quality, postal records, etc all match what everyone else has in their homes, then, yeah, it could still be faked, but it's a much harder pill for a judge to swallow. Like, at some point people are going to decide that you're either telling the truth or you are a super genius with way too much time on your hands. Either way they're going to tend towards letting you off the hook.

dqx 6y ago

> Unpopular opinion: I think This part of the comment doesn't add anything. We can leave "I kNoW I'lL bE dOwNvOtEd BuT..." on reddit.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

A lot of people don't have reliable internet access still.

nickysielicki 6y ago

My drivers license expires later this year, which is the first time that I have ever needed to renew it. Due to COVID, my license could be renewed online. I did it last night. The problem? I couldn’t update any of my info from when I was 16 unless I went in person. What this ultimately means is that I will be 34 when this new license expires, using a baby faced teenage photo from 18 years prior, with physical descriptions that are out of date and inaccurate. Oh well.

Arrath 6y ago
Same here. I'm nearing 32, with a baby-faced ill-advised high school ponytail headshot on my license.
jimmaswell 6y ago
Was it not an option to go in person?
- nickysielicki 6y ago
  No, I could have gone in-person if I wanted. But who wants to take an hour out of their day to go to the DMV? What do I care if my government-issued ID is inaccurate? That's their problem.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - raunak 6y ago
    It could also potentially be your problem. What if an officer pulls you over and has to compare current you to your ID? Could be cause for trouble.

duckfang 6y ago

> Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption. The converse is that the government should provide free internet access to all citizens and immigrants, IF that is the primary way to communicate with the govt. I also reject that "mail is an option" when mail takes 6-8 weeks to get to a federal/state inbox, and takes that much time back. Even contacts at agencies I work with have me send DVDs to their contractors to bypass federal months-long delays in sending required resources.

cratermoon 6y ago
Also there should be programs to re-integrate prisoners after incarceration, or just generally give them better access to be able to keep up with the outside world.
- duckfang 6y ago
  Absolutely. But I'm also a realist that realizes that States have de-prioritized Covid vaccines purely because of optics placed above public health. https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andrew-cuomos-refusal-to-vaccinate-inmates-is-indefensible https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andr... https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2021/01/05/prioritizing-prisoners-for-vaccines-stirs-controversy https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta... Because of that, any plans that try to to help everyone MUST have no exceptions for offenders. In that way, it would have a better chance to pass since it doesn't directly call out offenders.
- cestith 6y ago
  There should also be a lot less carcerial punishment. We overuse the prison system. Far too much of that is due to either minimum sentencing laws the judges and even prosecutors tend to hate and to line the pockets of private prisons or private corporations servicing public prisons and inmates.

JustSomeNobody 6y ago

I agree. I also think that if Government keeps pushing everything to the internet, then the internet needs to be a utility.

varispeed 6y ago

I feel the opposite - any contact should be online only and traceable - this will minimise surface area where the corruption could creep in as any conversation prior to the decisions could be audited. You know there will be no table to slide the money under.

EGreg 6y ago

UK thinks like you https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281

skeeter2020 6y ago

Well the problem with this in Canada is that it's not a binary decision between paper forms from an office and submitting a web form; there are a bunch of in-between technologies that also need to be supported: fax machines, order paper forms via an automated telephone system, file by phone, fill out a PDF, print and mail - how do you decide when you can phase out any or all of these? Also counter-intuitively, a physical office you can visit or phone number where you're on hold for an hour plus, and need to access between 9am-4pm, M-F could actually be less accessible for a huge portion of society compared to 24/7 web forms. If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?

southerntofu 6y ago
> If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that? That is a big problem. But in my experience, we always manage somehow, if only by mandating someone else to do it for us. The level of unaccountability reached with online services here in France during COVID times is incredible. At least when we had physical places to go, i could always have someone face-to-face to have an argument about why the hell the system is broken. Now this is not an option anymore...

dr-detroit 6y ago

Popular opinion: I don't want to pay the tax bill for your ubiquitous comfort.

boatsie 6y ago

As far as your minor point, it is likely the person behind the desk will be looking at basically the same interface you would be online, then just typing things in for you. So if there is a service interruption, it’s likely they would also be saying “Sorry, our systems are down.”

dfgdghdf 6y ago

Agreed! And if government services do go online only, then I think the government is obligated to provide free internet access and training to those who can't afford it, in the same way that they provide roads and legal defense.

glitchc 6y ago

Offline-first or offline-only can be a major barrier to accessibility. Those who cannot travel (due to a disability) or cannot travel far (due to cost) are disadvantaged. Offering services online is a major game-changer for such folks.

kube-system 6y ago
This is a reason why an accessible national mail system is also a good thing.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

Right now the right to live and work of many EU citizens can only be applied for electronically and proven only through a webpage. If that database field ever goes from 'true' to 'false' they will be fired, deported and never allowed into the country again.

alexashka 6y ago

You've forgotten to include cost, in your cost/benefit analysis. That's kind of important.

k__ 6y ago

Popular opinion: I think governments should invest at least a mangitude more money into adult education and life long learning should be normalized. Situations like the one mentioned here shouldn't happen.

deleted 6y ago

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offtop5 6y ago

Agreed , it's not a bad idea to always have an offline backup system just in case. Like if you're filing for unemployment, you can only do that via the government, you can't just go to a different unemployment office. So having a way to send in the form manually is always a surefire thing. Even if it just gets digitized later, that's more than enough to prevent something like an oracle system's downtime stopping hundreds of thousands of people filing for benefits

bluSCALE4 6y ago

I've found that the govt can get away with your second major point regardless of an online presence. My example is property taxes in Cook County, IL. Biggest shit show you'll ever experience. I had the board side with me and it took 3 years to get the money back. Keyword is back, money already paid. No number of calls, in person meetings helped. I must have gone there about 6-7 times and nothing.