3 ms·

I think that whereas little has changed for men, it's mostly influenced by women. In today's society women are encouraged to develop their careers, stay single

I think that whereas little has changed for men, it's mostly influenced by women. In today's society women are encouraged to develop their careers, stay single and have fun through their 20s which is when their fertility is declining while at the same time their standards are rising. There are millions of high achieving single women in their 30s that cannot find a partner because of hypergamy. A few decades of liberalism cannot erase millions of years of evolution.

blacktriangle 6y ago
I've tried and failed many times to explain this phenomenon to women and I can't get it through. Everything these women do that makes them believe their relationship desirability and thus standards in men has increased (education, career) is actually decreasing their relationship desirability (they're older and have less time and energy to devote to family). That's great that women are doing what they want to do, but they also need to accept that when it comes to dating the 30s high achiever ranks far below the mid 20s waitress who wants to be a full-time homemaker and adjust their standards in men accordingly.
- jdgoesmarching 6y ago
  Interesting that those women struggle to understand your point that they deserves less for prioritizing their own livelihoods during a crucial part of their career rather than meeting HN neckbeard standards of “desirability.” This isn’t hard, people are having less children because the economy is crumbling. Even people with moderately stable jobs are afraid to risk that security by having children.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "This isn’t hard, people are having less children because the economy is crumbling. " Overwhelmingly people are having less children because 'birth control'. This is a giant social change that we don't remotely talk enough about. 'Sex' 50 years ago meant 'pregnancy'. Our current social mores would not remotely be possible without effective and fairly widespread birth control. 80% of our young girls would be pregnant by 21. Secondarily - social change and the aspirations of both young men and women. " the economy is crumbling" ? COVID aside, what do you mean by 'crumbling'? GDP per capita is rising, unemployment is historically very low, and in reality 'real wages' are actually doing ok. The purchasing power of working class people in 2020 is considerably greater than 50 years ago. Walmart, my god man, that store alone has changed everything. The stuff you an buy, for the prices, it's just shocking. Economic factors are important - for example, in Quebec they've instituted $5/day day care and that has actually moved the needle. But our choice to have 2 jobs is very much that - a choice. We could have more kids and different kinds of lives. Real estate would be cheaper, but homes would probably be a little less nice, we'd eat out less and have slightly less stuff.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > HN neckbeard standards of “desirability.” Offending people who express an opinion does not make the opinion wrong. I heard this idea first from a woman. A friend of mine complained that when she was 20 years old, every man's head turned to her when she entered the room; but when she was 30 years old, her date's head turned when a 20 years old woman entered the room. On intellectual level she already kinda knew this could happen, but it still hurt a lot emotionally when it actually happened. Hiding this information from young women is not necessarily helping them. The problem with career is that for many people it is exciting at the beginning, but becomes a chore after a few years... with no end in sight. This also should be more emphasized to young people (of both genders). Enjoy the work while it's fun, but save as much money as you can for the years when it stops being fun, and think twice about sacrificing things for a career... or you might give up something you desire for something you will hate. Oh, another thing young people of both genders should be told, is the ageism they will face in the second half of their careers. As another example of how the first impression of the "career" is not a representative one.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  Suppose the mid 20s waitress finds a guy who marries her... and divorces her a few years later. Is she in a better position now? Now she is in mid 30s, with no money, no job experience, and a child -- that doesn't work well neither at job market nor at dating market. I am not disagreeing with you here; just saying that traditional strategies worked more reliably in traditional environment. I wanted to add that today they probably work well among religious people... but then I remembered a few divorced religious people I know. If the society stayed the same way it is now for a few centuries (which is unlikely to happen; either we get full automation, or we run out of oil), new traditions would probably develop, better fit to the new conditions. In my opinion, the lesson that many middle-class people miss today, is that just because you have money to spend, you should not spend it all. I would recommend that people who don't have children yet, save 50% of their income, if they can afford it. Because that means that when two such people marry, they can now live on 100% of one income, keep exactly the same economical level they are used to, and have as many children as they want to. I assume the real reason for low birth rates is the combination: some people don't want to have kids, some people would like to have more kids but they can't afford to. Having the former would not be a problem, if the latter could compensate for it; for one pair without kids, another pair would have 4, and everyone would be happy.

blacktriangle 6y ago

I've tried and failed many times to explain this phenomenon to women and I can't get it through. Everything these women do that makes them believe their relationship desirability and thus standards in men has increased (education, career) is actually decreasing their relationship desirability (they're older and have less time and energy to devote to family). That's great that women are doing what they want to do, but they also need to accept that when it comes to dating the 30s high achiever ranks far below the mid 20s waitress who wants to be a full-time homemaker and adjust their standards in men accordingly.

jdgoesmarching 6y ago
Interesting that those women struggle to understand your point that they deserves less for prioritizing their own livelihoods during a crucial part of their career rather than meeting HN neckbeard standards of “desirability.” This isn’t hard, people are having less children because the economy is crumbling. Even people with moderately stable jobs are afraid to risk that security by having children.
- jariel 6y ago
  "This isn’t hard, people are having less children because the economy is crumbling. " Overwhelmingly people are having less children because 'birth control'. This is a giant social change that we don't remotely talk enough about. 'Sex' 50 years ago meant 'pregnancy'. Our current social mores would not remotely be possible without effective and fairly widespread birth control. 80% of our young girls would be pregnant by 21. Secondarily - social change and the aspirations of both young men and women. " the economy is crumbling" ? COVID aside, what do you mean by 'crumbling'? GDP per capita is rising, unemployment is historically very low, and in reality 'real wages' are actually doing ok. The purchasing power of working class people in 2020 is considerably greater than 50 years ago. Walmart, my god man, that store alone has changed everything. The stuff you an buy, for the prices, it's just shocking. Economic factors are important - for example, in Quebec they've instituted $5/day day care and that has actually moved the needle. But our choice to have 2 jobs is very much that - a choice. We could have more kids and different kinds of lives. Real estate would be cheaper, but homes would probably be a little less nice, we'd eat out less and have slightly less stuff.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  > HN neckbeard standards of “desirability.” Offending people who express an opinion does not make the opinion wrong. I heard this idea first from a woman. A friend of mine complained that when she was 20 years old, every man's head turned to her when she entered the room; but when she was 30 years old, her date's head turned when a 20 years old woman entered the room. On intellectual level she already kinda knew this could happen, but it still hurt a lot emotionally when it actually happened. Hiding this information from young women is not necessarily helping them. The problem with career is that for many people it is exciting at the beginning, but becomes a chore after a few years... with no end in sight. This also should be more emphasized to young people (of both genders). Enjoy the work while it's fun, but save as much money as you can for the years when it stops being fun, and think twice about sacrificing things for a career... or you might give up something you desire for something you will hate. Oh, another thing young people of both genders should be told, is the ageism they will face in the second half of their careers. As another example of how the first impression of the "career" is not a representative one.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Viliam1234 6y ago
Suppose the mid 20s waitress finds a guy who marries her... and divorces her a few years later. Is she in a better position now? Now she is in mid 30s, with no money, no job experience, and a child -- that doesn't work well neither at job market nor at dating market. I am not disagreeing with you here; just saying that traditional strategies worked more reliably in traditional environment. I wanted to add that today they probably work well among religious people... but then I remembered a few divorced religious people I know. If the society stayed the same way it is now for a few centuries (which is unlikely to happen; either we get full automation, or we run out of oil), new traditions would probably develop, better fit to the new conditions. In my opinion, the lesson that many middle-class people miss today, is that just because you have money to spend, you should not spend it all. I would recommend that people who don't have children yet, save 50% of their income, if they can afford it. Because that means that when two such people marry, they can now live on 100% of one income, keep exactly the same economical level they are used to, and have as many children as they want to. I assume the real reason for low birth rates is the combination: some people don't want to have kids, some people would like to have more kids but they can't afford to. Having the former would not be a problem, if the latter could compensate for it; for one pair without kids, another pair would have 4, and everyone would be happy.