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I can not speak of you or your friends situations, but I disagree with your generalization: >Somehow the idea that someone can be perfectly sane and not want t

I can not speak of you or your friends situations, but I disagree with your generalization: >Somehow the idea that someone can be perfectly sane and not want to live as long as possible is inconceivable to people. There are many people who have considered suicide, chosen not to follow through (or failed), and then realized that they were in an emotional state of mind. Suicide is a generally pathological phenomenon - horrible things will happen if we don't accept this as the null hypotheses in specific cases.

strogonoff 6y ago
No one has a say in whether they want life in the first place. It seems perfectly imaginable that some may be unhappy with having it forced onto them, but endure it because the alternative is a taboo.
guareber8 6y ago
I disagree with your logic: the fact that there are (even possibly a majority!) of cases when not wanting to live as long as possible is the result of a pathology, it doesn't negate that there are perfectly sane people who do not want to prolongue their life. Just one such case is enough to make their statement accurate - I don't think he generalised those willing to die, but those unwilling to accept that as their choice. Based exclusively on my experience, that is a valid generalisation. And yes, plenty of people have setup advanced directives, DnR's, and other such instructions while fully on their capacities, and that doesn't require them being in a pathological or even emotional state. It can easily be caused by having a standard of quality of life they intend to maintain.
- dfhjgkljhf44 6y ago
  I wasn't as clear as I'd like to have been. I agree that sane suicidal people exist. I don't believe it's surprising that people assume that suicidal people are not sane - the heuristic is accurate and helpful for those who need help. Edit: I feel compelled to add a qualification to what I've posted. If anyone thinks they are rational and suicidal: I don't believe you. Self-harm is an emotional behavior. Our brains are designed to help us lie to ourselves when we're emotional. The odds that you are the one philosopher in an arbitrarily large crowd of people who's needs aren't being met is incredibly slim. I grant no one abstract approval for ending their own life.
  - guareber8 6y ago
    Ok that makes more sense. I also agree with you in that I don't believe it's surprising, but I think it's for entirely different reasons. Mine are rooted in my skepticism about the capacity for critical thinking in the general population.
deelowe 6y ago
So? Sorry to be so callus, but I'd wager there are many more people suffering daily in hospice and family members risking jail time to end the suffering of their relatives. I have second hand experience with this. The doctor told a relative of mine "whatever you do, don't turn this knob here, or they will die a painless silent death" and walked out of the room.
- oleander73 6y ago
  Thank you for making this point. I've never been brave enough to make this point, but often thought about it. Even in psychiatric cases, I think it is not unreasonable to assume that having a more accepting approach to ending your life will not result in significantly more deaths and a lot less suffering.

strogonoff 6y ago

No one has a say in whether they want life in the first place. It seems perfectly imaginable that some may be unhappy with having it forced onto them, but endure it because the alternative is a taboo.

guareber8 6y ago

I disagree with your logic: the fact that there are (even possibly a majority!) of cases when not wanting to live as long as possible is the result of a pathology, it doesn't negate that there are perfectly sane people who do not want to prolongue their life. Just one such case is enough to make their statement accurate - I don't think he generalised those willing to die, but those unwilling to accept that as their choice. Based exclusively on my experience, that is a valid generalisation. And yes, plenty of people have setup advanced directives, DnR's, and other such instructions while fully on their capacities, and that doesn't require them being in a pathological or even emotional state. It can easily be caused by having a standard of quality of life they intend to maintain.

dfhjgkljhf44 6y ago
I wasn't as clear as I'd like to have been. I agree that sane suicidal people exist. I don't believe it's surprising that people assume that suicidal people are not sane - the heuristic is accurate and helpful for those who need help. Edit: I feel compelled to add a qualification to what I've posted. If anyone thinks they are rational and suicidal: I don't believe you. Self-harm is an emotional behavior. Our brains are designed to help us lie to ourselves when we're emotional. The odds that you are the one philosopher in an arbitrarily large crowd of people who's needs aren't being met is incredibly slim. I grant no one abstract approval for ending their own life.
- guareber8 6y ago
  Ok that makes more sense. I also agree with you in that I don't believe it's surprising, but I think it's for entirely different reasons. Mine are rooted in my skepticism about the capacity for critical thinking in the general population.

deelowe 6y ago

So? Sorry to be so callus, but I'd wager there are many more people suffering daily in hospice and family members risking jail time to end the suffering of their relatives. I have second hand experience with this. The doctor told a relative of mine "whatever you do, don't turn this knob here, or they will die a painless silent death" and walked out of the room.

oleander73 6y ago
Thank you for making this point. I've never been brave enough to make this point, but often thought about it. Even in psychiatric cases, I think it is not unreasonable to assume that having a more accepting approach to ending your life will not result in significantly more deaths and a lot less suffering.