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It’s a complex subject, but these rulings are a direct result of our nihilist materialist pseudo-rational thinking and easily seem to get out of bounds. There u

It’s a complex subject, but these rulings are a direct result of our nihilist materialist pseudo-rational thinking and easily seem to get out of bounds. There unusually seem to be complex interpersonal relations involved too. Belgium allowed a 24yo with severe depression to “decide” for assisted suicide (this seems to be frequent, I’ve heard of a similar case of a student this year), and the Netherlands wants to allow childhood euthanasia soon (it is already allowed for those over 12). Decision makers seem to believe that they are rational and ruling out religious moral opinions on these subjects, however we seem to be gravitating towards the buddhist nihilist view that life is suffering, and that our reason to live is to end suffering by vanishing.

deleted 6y ago
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sofixa 6y ago
It's not the country that decides, it's the person and a panel of doctors, and there are requirements ( severe physical or mental issues). Point in case, there's a trial for murder on doctors that signed off on euthanasia for a woman which didn't fit the requirements - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-euthanasia-idUSKBN1ZC1FS https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-euthanasia-idUSKB...
float4 6y ago
> the Netherlands wants to allow childhood euthanasia soon Doctors in the Netherlands want this simply as a better alternative to palliative sedation, which is already legal in NL and many other countries in the world. Some children are terminally ill, and they are palliatively sedated when the parents and doctors agree that this is the best thing to do. The difference between palliative sedation and euthanasia in these cases is small, in the opinion of many Dutch people and doctors. Some quotes from a report[0] from the Dutch Association for Pediatrics, to give you an idea of what kind of cases we're talking about: > 'Well, yeah, he had a period during which he was screaming from pain: "Help me, just help me!" That was truly horrible to see, that someone is really hitting his own head while begging for help. That went on for three days. Every time I called for a nurse and they could only increase his medicine further. And at one point a nurse came and said bluntly: "yes madam, your child has a brain tumour. Of course he is in pain". Well, I thought: "okay I guess"'. > 'He didn't want to be sedated, because he said: "then I can no longer say whether I am in pain" [...] So we postponed that, but in the end he needed so much medicine that we asked him "do you want a little sleep medicine now?", and by then he wanted it". Child, 4 years old' [0] http://download.omroep.nl/nos/docs/280919_euthanasie.pdf http://download.omroep.nl/nos/docs/280919_euthanasie.pdf
- DanielleMolloy 6y ago
  You are giving examples of the complexity of this topic when it comes to individual cases, which I do acknowledge and am aware of. However you did not acknowledge / wage them against the many complex loopholes euthanasia laws are opening, which I tried to point at. As you say, we do already have palliative care. Why not improve much further on this front instead of opening all the legal loopholes, which can easily lead to more suffering in the end (if one wants to play this “sum of suffering” thinking game)?
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I don't think your first comment really made those very legitimate concerns clear. I'm pro right to die, but I'm also aware that it's a slippery slope and can go bad places. That's a good thing to talk about, but it's not easy to do and I don't think your first remark made your concerns clear.
  - tremon 6y ago
    You are clinging to generic fictional arguments and refuse to acknowledge that every case is individual. What's your definition of "palliative care"? Should the goal of palliative care be to maximize the vegetative lifespan of a patient? Or should the care focus on making a patient's last few hours/days a meaningful experience for all involved?
    - DanielleMolloy 6y ago
      Thinking about individual cases I’ve heard of during my time in NL (one being relatively close, a young depressed student) is what has lead me to the opinion that the floodgates have indeed been opened - which is what people have been warning about. I’m otherwise not sure how you perceive me right now, but you might be attacking your straw man. The goal of palliative care is increasing the quality of a dying person’s life with dignity and as little pain as possible, and allow them to make the best of the time that is left to them. Instead of opening euthanasia floodgates that just lead to difficult individual situations (such as not wanting to be a burden to one’s family, a very common feeling) I do believe we need more research in this direction.
chronofar 6y ago
Rather I think the point is we’re gravitating towards the idea that not all life is worth living, and the consciousness that must (alone) experience a given life should have primacy on decision rights of its continuation. To relinquish some of the sacredness of life endowed by evolution is not to commit wholeheartedly to nihilism.
oleander73 6y ago
It must be nice in your pretend world where unbearable suffering of children does not exist.
- deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago

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sofixa 6y ago

It's not the country that decides, it's the person and a panel of doctors, and there are requirements ( severe physical or mental issues). Point in case, there's a trial for murder on doctors that signed off on euthanasia for a woman which didn't fit the requirements - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-euthanasia-idUSKBN1ZC1FS https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-euthanasia-idUSKB...

float4 6y ago

> the Netherlands wants to allow childhood euthanasia soon Doctors in the Netherlands want this simply as a better alternative to palliative sedation, which is already legal in NL and many other countries in the world. Some children are terminally ill, and they are palliatively sedated when the parents and doctors agree that this is the best thing to do. The difference between palliative sedation and euthanasia in these cases is small, in the opinion of many Dutch people and doctors. Some quotes from a report[0] from the Dutch Association for Pediatrics, to give you an idea of what kind of cases we're talking about: > 'Well, yeah, he had a period during which he was screaming from pain: "Help me, just help me!" That was truly horrible to see, that someone is really hitting his own head while begging for help. That went on for three days. Every time I called for a nurse and they could only increase his medicine further. And at one point a nurse came and said bluntly: "yes madam, your child has a brain tumour. Of course he is in pain". Well, I thought: "okay I guess"'. > 'He didn't want to be sedated, because he said: "then I can no longer say whether I am in pain" [...] So we postponed that, but in the end he needed so much medicine that we asked him "do you want a little sleep medicine now?", and by then he wanted it". Child, 4 years old' [0] http://download.omroep.nl/nos/docs/280919_euthanasie.pdf http://download.omroep.nl/nos/docs/280919_euthanasie.pdf

DanielleMolloy 6y ago
You are giving examples of the complexity of this topic when it comes to individual cases, which I do acknowledge and am aware of. However you did not acknowledge / wage them against the many complex loopholes euthanasia laws are opening, which I tried to point at. As you say, we do already have palliative care. Why not improve much further on this front instead of opening all the legal loopholes, which can easily lead to more suffering in the end (if one wants to play this “sum of suffering” thinking game)?
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I don't think your first comment really made those very legitimate concerns clear. I'm pro right to die, but I'm also aware that it's a slippery slope and can go bad places. That's a good thing to talk about, but it's not easy to do and I don't think your first remark made your concerns clear.
- tremon 6y ago
  You are clinging to generic fictional arguments and refuse to acknowledge that every case is individual. What's your definition of "palliative care"? Should the goal of palliative care be to maximize the vegetative lifespan of a patient? Or should the care focus on making a patient's last few hours/days a meaningful experience for all involved?
  - DanielleMolloy 6y ago
    Thinking about individual cases I’ve heard of during my time in NL (one being relatively close, a young depressed student) is what has lead me to the opinion that the floodgates have indeed been opened - which is what people have been warning about. I’m otherwise not sure how you perceive me right now, but you might be attacking your straw man. The goal of palliative care is increasing the quality of a dying person’s life with dignity and as little pain as possible, and allow them to make the best of the time that is left to them. Instead of opening euthanasia floodgates that just lead to difficult individual situations (such as not wanting to be a burden to one’s family, a very common feeling) I do believe we need more research in this direction.

chronofar 6y ago

Rather I think the point is we’re gravitating towards the idea that not all life is worth living, and the consciousness that must (alone) experience a given life should have primacy on decision rights of its continuation. To relinquish some of the sacredness of life endowed by evolution is not to commit wholeheartedly to nihilism.

oleander73 6y ago

It must be nice in your pretend world where unbearable suffering of children does not exist.

deleted 6y ago
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