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Needing to use Docker is a great reason Linux on the developer laptop makes total sense. > horrendously slow piece of software on Apple computers, draining bat

by cies 6y ago

Needing to use Docker is a great reason Linux on the developer laptop makes total sense. > horrendously slow piece of software on Apple computers, draining battery life like crazy Exactly. Thankfully there is Docker on Mac: how would my colleagues with shiny laptops get work done otherwise?

adamors 6y ago
The problem with Linux on the Desktop is that it's still a horrible, time-wasting experience. I have to unplug/replug my mouse every time I boot into Ubuntu because it's not recognised otherwise. Another wired mouse I have is not recognised at all (was working just fine during install). As somebody who works 8+ hours a day, I don't have time for this shit.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  > The problem with Linux on the Desktop is that it's still a horrible, time-wasting experience. In your experience - that's not uniformly true - I'm a counter example - I installed Fedora on this machine when I built it a few years ago (and have upgraded to each release) and have had zero hardware issues and that's running an RTX2080 with the binary driver (historically a pain point on Linux). As someone who also uses a recent generation work issued mac the different for me is stark.
  - adamors 6y ago
    I'm well aware my experience is not uniformly true. My point is, that an inconsistent experience is not something I have time to debug anymore. I ran Arch 10+ years ago when I had more time than sense, but those days are long gone. I'd rather spend my non-work time AFK.
- danieldk 6y ago
  I have a Ryzen 3700X desktop and have literally zero hardware issues with NixOS and Fedora. The Intel NUC8i5 I had before that also worked flawlessly. I also purchased a ThinkPad T14 AMD. It works fine with Linux and all the hardware works out of the box (including the fingerprint reader, WiFi and webcam). Additional benefit: upgraded it from 16GB to 32GB for under 100 Euro. I used Macs from 2007 until 2020. But in my daily work, I have experienced far more issues with macOS than with Linux in recent years (I was a very happy Mac user from 2007 to ~2015).
- arvinsim 6y ago
  I installed Pop!_OS on my gaming PC. Didn't have to do any fiddling at all. I was so impressed by it that it has replaced my Mac laptop as a development machine at home.
- guggle 6y ago
  I'd argue that the experience is significantly worse on laptops than desktops where it has been more or less fine.
- tirrex 6y ago
  I hated linux desktops, it was unusable for me. I gave a try again 3 years ago, since then, no issues, it’s been super smooth for me. I used 5-6 laptops along three years, I’m still surprised it’s that good. I use stock ubuntu. Maybe I’m just lucky that I picked laptops/hardware which work smoothly on linux/ubuntu
f6v 6y ago
> Needing to use Docker is a great reason Linux on the developer laptop makes total sense. So do you always run the same server distribution with exactly the same package versions on your laptop? Otherwise, you miss the point of Docker.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  That’s not the point. Docker is native to Linux, it is much faster and simpler on Linux where it does not have to use virtualisation.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >where it does not have to use virtualisation You'd be surprised.
    - ubercow13 6y ago
      Go on..?
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >where it does not have to use virtualisation Container isolation is still OS-level virtualization. It just doesn't use a hypervisor.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        It might use a hypervisor though, as the pendulum swings back https://katacontainers.io/ https://katacontainers.io/
- hibbelig 6y ago
  They are saying that they need to run Docker precisely because they need different package versions. Given that Docker is required, Linux is attractive because then you can run Docker without running a Linux VM.
pjmlp 6y ago
Windows has native containers, and I bet the Docker GUI will eventually become a thing of the past. No, I don't use WSL, and still get work done.
coldtea 6y ago
>Thankfully there is Docker on Mac: how would my colleagues with shiny laptops get work done otherwise? This "shiny/for the clueless" Linux-edgelord meme must die. Might as well write "MS" with a dollar sign in 2021. Go to any programming conference and check the speakers. Over 50% use an Apple laptop. Check major developers people follow, from old Unix hands like Rob Pike, to every major JS cat, to admins, all the way to the creator of Gnome, Gnumeric and Mono, and their preferences, and you'll find they use a Mac laptop with macOS. (And hardware wise, even Linus Torvalds had an Apple G5 tower as his main driver, and later an Intel Macbook Air he praised as the best machine he had used (though he used Linux on those). In any case, there are benefits and tradeoffs, but "lol, Mac is teh suck" is inane. To correct you: no, Docker is not used because "you need to". It's used (also on Linux) for reproducability, isolation, the ability to write code with different dependencies with the whole system at your disposal, and to not mix your driver machine with your development environment. It is the same use if you run Linux distro X and deployed on another version of it, or on the same version with some tweeks/different libs, or to whole other distro. And no, it hasn't been a "horrendously slow piece of software on Apple computers, draining battery life like crazy" for ages, and when it was it wasn't because of some macOS limitation, but because the company had done a half-arsed job with the fs layer. And as far as "needing to use Docker", macOS is not any different than any Linux/FreeBSD distro on that front. If you prefer a local, mix-everything-in, not discliplined approach, unlike what Docker offers, you can install anything you like, from Brew, MacPorts, Fink and so on. You can even have Nix for reproducible builds under that scheme.
- cies 6y ago
  > because the company had done a half-arsed job with the fs layer Exactly. And I know Mac reigns in dev land. Just the moment Docker comes around (and it does quite a bit lately) all those shiny (and that's a compliment) pieces of hardware become heated vacuum cleaners. I'm not saying "lol, Mac is teh suck" (what you apparently want to read). I'm saying: here's something that my Linux laptop wins at. Docker. You come across rather angry, even saying that Linus uses Apple hardware without running the macOS... How does that work as an argument against my experience?
  - 6y ago
blunte 6y ago
I have done and still do all my development on a Mac and deploy to Linux. I run 3-5 rails servers, redis, postgreql, mysql, jetbrains ides, slack, meet, spotify, vscode, and probably two or three other apps I forget now. I do all this on either my 2014 15” MBP i7 or my 2019 13” MBP i5. The only thing I lack is drive space. I have reinstalled my 2014 OS never, and I have a truckload of usb devices (mostly music production) attached. You simply cannot match that with a Linux laptop. I love Linux, but not for desktop use.

by cies 6y ago

adamors 6y ago

The problem with Linux on the Desktop is that it's still a horrible, time-wasting experience. I have to unplug/replug my mouse every time I boot into Ubuntu because it's not recognised otherwise. Another wired mouse I have is not recognised at all (was working just fine during install). As somebody who works 8+ hours a day, I don't have time for this shit.

noir_lord 6y ago
> The problem with Linux on the Desktop is that it's still a horrible, time-wasting experience. In your experience - that's not uniformly true - I'm a counter example - I installed Fedora on this machine when I built it a few years ago (and have upgraded to each release) and have had zero hardware issues and that's running an RTX2080 with the binary driver (historically a pain point on Linux). As someone who also uses a recent generation work issued mac the different for me is stark.
- adamors 6y ago
  I'm well aware my experience is not uniformly true. My point is, that an inconsistent experience is not something I have time to debug anymore. I ran Arch 10+ years ago when I had more time than sense, but those days are long gone. I'd rather spend my non-work time AFK.
danieldk 6y ago
I have a Ryzen 3700X desktop and have literally zero hardware issues with NixOS and Fedora. The Intel NUC8i5 I had before that also worked flawlessly. I also purchased a ThinkPad T14 AMD. It works fine with Linux and all the hardware works out of the box (including the fingerprint reader, WiFi and webcam). Additional benefit: upgraded it from 16GB to 32GB for under 100 Euro. I used Macs from 2007 until 2020. But in my daily work, I have experienced far more issues with macOS than with Linux in recent years (I was a very happy Mac user from 2007 to ~2015).
arvinsim 6y ago
I installed Pop!_OS on my gaming PC. Didn't have to do any fiddling at all. I was so impressed by it that it has replaced my Mac laptop as a development machine at home.
guggle 6y ago
I'd argue that the experience is significantly worse on laptops than desktops where it has been more or less fine.
tirrex 6y ago
I hated linux desktops, it was unusable for me. I gave a try again 3 years ago, since then, no issues, it’s been super smooth for me. I used 5-6 laptops along three years, I’m still surprised it’s that good. I use stock ubuntu. Maybe I’m just lucky that I picked laptops/hardware which work smoothly on linux/ubuntu

f6v 6y ago

> Needing to use Docker is a great reason Linux on the developer laptop makes total sense. So do you always run the same server distribution with exactly the same package versions on your laptop? Otherwise, you miss the point of Docker.

ubercow13 6y ago
That’s not the point. Docker is native to Linux, it is much faster and simpler on Linux where it does not have to use virtualisation.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >where it does not have to use virtualisation You'd be surprised.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Go on..?
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >where it does not have to use virtualisation Container isolation is still OS-level virtualization. It just doesn't use a hypervisor.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        It might use a hypervisor though, as the pendulum swings back https://katacontainers.io/ https://katacontainers.io/
hibbelig 6y ago
They are saying that they need to run Docker precisely because they need different package versions. Given that Docker is required, Linux is attractive because then you can run Docker without running a Linux VM.

pjmlp 6y ago

Windows has native containers, and I bet the Docker GUI will eventually become a thing of the past. No, I don't use WSL, and still get work done.

coldtea 6y ago

>Thankfully there is Docker on Mac: how would my colleagues with shiny laptops get work done otherwise? This "shiny/for the clueless" Linux-edgelord meme must die. Might as well write "MS" with a dollar sign in 2021. Go to any programming conference and check the speakers. Over 50% use an Apple laptop. Check major developers people follow, from old Unix hands like Rob Pike, to every major JS cat, to admins, all the way to the creator of Gnome, Gnumeric and Mono, and their preferences, and you'll find they use a Mac laptop with macOS. (And hardware wise, even Linus Torvalds had an Apple G5 tower as his main driver, and later an Intel Macbook Air he praised as the best machine he had used (though he used Linux on those). In any case, there are benefits and tradeoffs, but "lol, Mac is teh suck" is inane. To correct you: no, Docker is not used because "you need to". It's used (also on Linux) for reproducability, isolation, the ability to write code with different dependencies with the whole system at your disposal, and to not mix your driver machine with your development environment. It is the same use if you run Linux distro X and deployed on another version of it, or on the same version with some tweeks/different libs, or to whole other distro. And no, it hasn't been a "horrendously slow piece of software on Apple computers, draining battery life like crazy" for ages, and when it was it wasn't because of some macOS limitation, but because the company had done a half-arsed job with the fs layer. And as far as "needing to use Docker", macOS is not any different than any Linux/FreeBSD distro on that front. If you prefer a local, mix-everything-in, not discliplined approach, unlike what Docker offers, you can install anything you like, from Brew, MacPorts, Fink and so on. You can even have Nix for reproducible builds under that scheme.

cies 6y ago
> because the company had done a half-arsed job with the fs layer Exactly. And I know Mac reigns in dev land. Just the moment Docker comes around (and it does quite a bit lately) all those shiny (and that's a compliment) pieces of hardware become heated vacuum cleaners. I'm not saying "lol, Mac is teh suck" (what you apparently want to read). I'm saying: here's something that my Linux laptop wins at. Docker. You come across rather angry, even saying that Linus uses Apple hardware without running the macOS... How does that work as an argument against my experience?
- 6y ago

blunte 6y ago

I have done and still do all my development on a Mac and deploy to Linux. I run 3-5 rails servers, redis, postgreql, mysql, jetbrains ides, slack, meet, spotify, vscode, and probably two or three other apps I forget now. I do all this on either my 2014 15” MBP i7 or my 2019 13” MBP i5. The only thing I lack is drive space. I have reinstalled my 2014 OS never, and I have a truckload of usb devices (mostly music production) attached. You simply cannot match that with a Linux laptop. I love Linux, but not for desktop use.