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Too punitive? So death sentence is OK for a kid that forgets to put out the arm once? I don't really understand this mentality.

by Moru 6y ago

DocTomoe 6y ago
Again, hyperbole helps no-one. Mistakes may sometimes lead to extreme consequences. A cyclist not indicating and thus experiencing an accident is not much different from someone ignoring safety rules around power tools and getting (badly) hurt by it. The damage is accidental, not punitive. "Death sentence" in such cases is overly emotional and meant to derail a discussion. It's meant to divide, not unite. Instead of having such almost pornographic fantasies about crimes and punishments, let's rather invest some energy to determine how we can lower the number of accidents, e.g. by providing better street law education for children who are about to start cycling, and better traffic enforcement.
- Moru 6y ago
  This is the drivers point of view, nowhere do we get the information of what actually happened. Just that the driver said the kids didn't put out the hand when he came in his big car in high speed. Were the kids actually turning or just going straight? Were they crossing the street?
  - DocTomoe 6y ago
    In all fairness, OP's description of the incident is not very clear. As both a driver and a cyclist, the only situation I can imagine a car driving through a "cloud of cyclists" under any circumstance is an intersection with a second lane for turning left (or right, in left-hand traffic countries). In such a situation, a cyclist may want to switch lanes to the turning lane, and - of course - would have to indicate the lane change. If no such indication is given, as a car driver, I would expect the cyclist to continue onwards, especially if there are lights that are green. I would not expect the cyclist to swerve out without indication - and as a cyclist, I agree that this is a very dangerous situation for the cyclist, since not only you are swerving out into the direct path of a car, but you also get slower relative to it.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      If you can't imagine a cloud of cyclists you need to watch a video or two of what dutch cycling traffic is like. Flooring your accelerator in a spot like that is super dangerous.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Specifically it was a roundabout, and the driver took half of it, the kids only 1/4, so he had to wait for all of 3 seconds before he realized they were making the turn, absolutely no reason to start driving that aggressively, especially not through literally 10's of cyclists. Very dangerous maneuver and only because he was irritated. This is the exact spot: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eemnesserweg,+Baarn/@52.2145276,5.2820917,20z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c6403b6afe415d:0x9a594d9ba316caa8!8m2!3d52.2150875!4d5.2805214 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eemnesserweg,+Baarn/@52.21... kids coming from Eemnesserweg turning right, car going straight, oncoming cyclist traffic on the road from the right as well. It was a pretty close call, there simply is no room there for faster driving than the speed at which the bikes move, which is fine because it takes less than a minute to cross the center of this town.

Too punitive? So death sentence is OK for a kid that forgets to put out the arm once? I don't really understand this mentality.

by Moru 6y ago

Too punitive? So death sentence is OK for a kid that forgets to put out the arm once? I don't really understand this mentality.

DocTomoe 6y ago

Again, hyperbole helps no-one. Mistakes may sometimes lead to extreme consequences. A cyclist not indicating and thus experiencing an accident is not much different from someone ignoring safety rules around power tools and getting (badly) hurt by it. The damage is accidental, not punitive. "Death sentence" in such cases is overly emotional and meant to derail a discussion. It's meant to divide, not unite. Instead of having such almost pornographic fantasies about crimes and punishments, let's rather invest some energy to determine how we can lower the number of accidents, e.g. by providing better street law education for children who are about to start cycling, and better traffic enforcement.

Moru 6y ago
This is the drivers point of view, nowhere do we get the information of what actually happened. Just that the driver said the kids didn't put out the hand when he came in his big car in high speed. Were the kids actually turning or just going straight? Were they crossing the street?
- DocTomoe 6y ago
  In all fairness, OP's description of the incident is not very clear. As both a driver and a cyclist, the only situation I can imagine a car driving through a "cloud of cyclists" under any circumstance is an intersection with a second lane for turning left (or right, in left-hand traffic countries). In such a situation, a cyclist may want to switch lanes to the turning lane, and - of course - would have to indicate the lane change. If no such indication is given, as a car driver, I would expect the cyclist to continue onwards, especially if there are lights that are green. I would not expect the cyclist to swerve out without indication - and as a cyclist, I agree that this is a very dangerous situation for the cyclist, since not only you are swerving out into the direct path of a car, but you also get slower relative to it.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    If you can't imagine a cloud of cyclists you need to watch a video or two of what dutch cycling traffic is like. Flooring your accelerator in a spot like that is super dangerous.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Specifically it was a roundabout, and the driver took half of it, the kids only 1/4, so he had to wait for all of 3 seconds before he realized they were making the turn, absolutely no reason to start driving that aggressively, especially not through literally 10's of cyclists. Very dangerous maneuver and only because he was irritated. This is the exact spot: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eemnesserweg,+Baarn/@52.2145276,5.2820917,20z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c6403b6afe415d:0x9a594d9ba316caa8!8m2!3d52.2150875!4d5.2805214 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eemnesserweg,+Baarn/@52.21... kids coming from Eemnesserweg turning right, car going straight, oncoming cyclist traffic on the road from the right as well. It was a pretty close call, there simply is no room there for faster driving than the speed at which the bikes move, which is fine because it takes less than a minute to cross the center of this town.