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> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downt

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

procinct 6y ago
I’m not from the USA but the statement makes perfect sense to me. I’m not quite sure what you imply with your point, that everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent Both, really. From all the people I know, there's only one person who cannot walk from his place to a nearby bakery. And in that case it was a conscious decision to "become isolated" and buy a house in an unlikely place. Walking every morning to buy bread for breakfast is a deeply entrenched cultural thing. I cannot really imagine living somewhere where this is not possible. Most of urbanized places are indeed downtown.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    Bakeries aren't generally found in malls. Malls are for items like shoes and socks -- items you get a few times a year, perhaps, not every day. Malls will have cafes that sell baked goods, but you probably wouldn't go there for your daily bread. Sadly, bakeries in America are rare. Your daily bread comes from the supermarket. Much of it isn't baked on site, and it's designed to keep for several days. We don't have a tradition of daily fresh bread, which is too bad for a lot of reasons. But Americans have plenty of food options so don't weep too much for us. If you want decent bread, it's available in many places, including many of those supermarkets and chain bakeries like Panera. It's not magnificent bread, but it's good. Magnificent bread is also available; it's just not a priority. Americans do have a pretty dysfunctional relationship with food, and we'd be a lot healthier if we fixed it. But the mall isn't really part of that. That's more about the supermarket than the mall, and those are separate niches.
jhbadger 6y ago
People do live downtown in US cities, but at least since the 1990s when that became popular again after city crime rates fell (for reasons which are still being debated today), these housing options (generally condominiums and rowhouses) tend to be very expensive compared to living in the suburbs. So only the upper middle class/upper class can afford it. It's not that unlike the situation in other countries. Living in the center of London or Paris isn't cheap either.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Meh, the US is still kind of odd. European cities tend to be wealthy in the center and less wealthy as you go out. US cities, at least the ones where downtown has turned around, have a donut-shaped wealth distribution; rich downtown, blighted inner-city and inner-ring, outer wealthy suburbs.
  - Cullinet 6y ago
    it's also just harder to rebuild and renew any downtown infrastructure, wherever located. in the UK, town centre development has been hindered particularly by the effects of having caused a diverse small business and retail environment to grow around central developments, whose owners have fiercely opposed any disruption that could be created by heavy works, regardless of the importance to their ultimate survival. consider where the central mall provides the only large scale car parking availability for the surrounding areas, like in my home town and the situation in Windsor afaict whenever I visit, which has a large town centre retail district without any suitable parking for the sprawl of retailers outward from the centre complexes. edit splitting to avoid confusion after accidentally posting early : concluding without the argument I originally intended, I suspect that the data is so poorly collected and used that we could very likely find many new ways to revitalise our town centers getting plenty of sensible fresh investment to pursue models we've been simply overlooking
jcims 6y ago
How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? That’s incredible! The mall near me that has all of that requires a few thousand meters of storefronts in 5-6 buildings just to pack all of that in. Where is this place?
- enriquto 6y ago
  > How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? Exactly. Most small towns in the suburbs of Paris are just like that if you live within 1km of the center. EDIT: It's nothing particular to France either. If you go to any city with more than, say, 20.000 or 30.000 inhabitants in western Europe (at least the countries that I know), it will be quite similar.
  - jcims 6y ago
    Sorry for the snark, it wasn’t necessary. I’m not particularly persuaded but i didn’t have to be a dick about it. :)
    - enriquto 6y ago
      Ha! didn't notice the snark on my first read. What can I say? Just come here and take a walk ;) EDIT: no need to take a plane... if you need some proof, look at this google maps/street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/iDirDFH16d8xMvwx9 https://goo.gl/maps/iDirDFH16d8xMvwx9 All the things that you mention on your "snarky" message can be indeed found on the couple of pedestrian streets that you see here. Except for the cinema, but there is a theatre (now closed due to covid). If you want a cinema you need to walk less than 2km to the one in the next town.
DIVx0 6y ago
The town in this article is a small/medium sized town in rural central Minnesota. The majority of people in this area will live in the surrounding country side and the "down town" isn't much more than a few blocks of buildings and side streets straddling a major highway. So for most people in the area, going anywhere besides a recreational walk, requires getting in a car. I don't believe this situation is unique to United States with regards to similar towns.
jollofricepeas 6y ago
The reason US cities are inside out is because of something called “white flight” and “redlining” that has happened as a result of slavery and racism unfortunately. It’s a really sad story that’s helped make the poor even poorer. You can learn more about it here: - https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/white-flight-alive-and-well/399980/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/white-f... - https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2018/03/white-flight-didn-t-disappear-it-just-moved-suburbs/ https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2018/03/white-fligh... - https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/redlining-what-is-history-mike-bloomberg-comments/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/redlining-what-is-history-mike-...

procinct 6y ago

I’m not from the USA but the statement makes perfect sense to me. I’m not quite sure what you imply with your point, that everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent.

enriquto 6y ago
> everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent Both, really. From all the people I know, there's only one person who cannot walk from his place to a nearby bakery. And in that case it was a conscious decision to "become isolated" and buy a house in an unlikely place. Walking every morning to buy bread for breakfast is a deeply entrenched cultural thing. I cannot really imagine living somewhere where this is not possible. Most of urbanized places are indeed downtown.
- jfengel 6y ago
  Bakeries aren't generally found in malls. Malls are for items like shoes and socks -- items you get a few times a year, perhaps, not every day. Malls will have cafes that sell baked goods, but you probably wouldn't go there for your daily bread. Sadly, bakeries in America are rare. Your daily bread comes from the supermarket. Much of it isn't baked on site, and it's designed to keep for several days. We don't have a tradition of daily fresh bread, which is too bad for a lot of reasons. But Americans have plenty of food options so don't weep too much for us. If you want decent bread, it's available in many places, including many of those supermarkets and chain bakeries like Panera. It's not magnificent bread, but it's good. Magnificent bread is also available; it's just not a priority. Americans do have a pretty dysfunctional relationship with food, and we'd be a lot healthier if we fixed it. But the mall isn't really part of that. That's more about the supermarket than the mall, and those are separate niches.

jhbadger 6y ago

People do live downtown in US cities, but at least since the 1990s when that became popular again after city crime rates fell (for reasons which are still being debated today), these housing options (generally condominiums and rowhouses) tend to be very expensive compared to living in the suburbs. So only the upper middle class/upper class can afford it. It's not that unlike the situation in other countries. Living in the center of London or Paris isn't cheap either.

bobthepanda 6y ago
Meh, the US is still kind of odd. European cities tend to be wealthy in the center and less wealthy as you go out. US cities, at least the ones where downtown has turned around, have a donut-shaped wealth distribution; rich downtown, blighted inner-city and inner-ring, outer wealthy suburbs.
- Cullinet 6y ago
  it's also just harder to rebuild and renew any downtown infrastructure, wherever located. in the UK, town centre development has been hindered particularly by the effects of having caused a diverse small business and retail environment to grow around central developments, whose owners have fiercely opposed any disruption that could be created by heavy works, regardless of the importance to their ultimate survival. consider where the central mall provides the only large scale car parking availability for the surrounding areas, like in my home town and the situation in Windsor afaict whenever I visit, which has a large town centre retail district without any suitable parking for the sprawl of retailers outward from the centre complexes. edit splitting to avoid confusion after accidentally posting early : concluding without the argument I originally intended, I suspect that the data is so poorly collected and used that we could very likely find many new ways to revitalise our town centers getting plenty of sensible fresh investment to pursue models we've been simply overlooking

jcims 6y ago

How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? That’s incredible! The mall near me that has all of that requires a few thousand meters of storefronts in 5-6 buildings just to pack all of that in. Where is this place?

enriquto 6y ago
> How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? Exactly. Most small towns in the suburbs of Paris are just like that if you live within 1km of the center. EDIT: It's nothing particular to France either. If you go to any city with more than, say, 20.000 or 30.000 inhabitants in western Europe (at least the countries that I know), it will be quite similar.
- jcims 6y ago
  Sorry for the snark, it wasn’t necessary. I’m not particularly persuaded but i didn’t have to be a dick about it. :)
  - enriquto 6y ago
    Ha! didn't notice the snark on my first read. What can I say? Just come here and take a walk ;) EDIT: no need to take a plane... if you need some proof, look at this google maps/street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/iDirDFH16d8xMvwx9 https://goo.gl/maps/iDirDFH16d8xMvwx9 All the things that you mention on your "snarky" message can be indeed found on the couple of pedestrian streets that you see here. Except for the cinema, but there is a theatre (now closed due to covid). If you want a cinema you need to walk less than 2km to the one in the next town.

DIVx0 6y ago

The town in this article is a small/medium sized town in rural central Minnesota. The majority of people in this area will live in the surrounding country side and the "down town" isn't much more than a few blocks of buildings and side streets straddling a major highway. So for most people in the area, going anywhere besides a recreational walk, requires getting in a car. I don't believe this situation is unique to United States with regards to similar towns.

jollofricepeas 6y ago

The reason US cities are inside out is because of something called “white flight” and “redlining” that has happened as a result of slavery and racism unfortunately. It’s a really sad story that’s helped make the poor even poorer. You can learn more about it here: - https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/white-flight-alive-and-well/399980/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/white-f... - https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2018/03/white-flight-didn-t-disappear-it-just-moved-suburbs/ https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2018/03/white-fligh... - https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history... - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/redlining-what-is-history-mike-bloomberg-comments/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/redlining-what-is-history-mike-...