3 ms·

It's a strange value system to think that expressing racism directed against a larger group of people is a less serious offense than expressing racism directed

by rsj_hn 6y ago

It's a strange value system to think that expressing racism directed against a larger group of people is a less serious offense than expressing racism directed against a smaller group. I will never understand people who justify racism this way. If anything, it is a more severe offense to insult a larger group of people, but one can be idealistic and argue that insulting a race should not depend on the size of the race.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Larger groups of people tend to be able to defend themselves more easily than smaller groups. There's a power differential in numbers. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's probably based in the same sort of logic that is behind guarding against the tyranny of the majority. It's the concept of punching up vs. punching down. Except in some cases like, Saddam Hussein's minority Sunni dictatorship over mostly-Shia Iraq, historically majority populations do better than minority ones. So they have less to lose when offended.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  "Punching up" is just an excuse for racism. See Matt Taibbi's review of some popular pro-racism books here: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility I recommend watching the excellent BBC documentary World At War (1973) -- You can watch it on Daily Motion (c.f. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p7c46 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p7c46). They had western reporters interview Nazi officials asking them to explain all the anti-jewish policies, and the answer is basically "We're punching up." They argued that jews were overrepresented and had too much power in German society; "we are merely righting the balance". In fact, if you talk to any racist, they will give you plenty of reasons explaining why the group of people they hate deserve to be hated and that he is merely "righting the balance". Everyone believes they are acting in the name of ultimate justice and that the hated group is deserving of the abuse. So I would recommend some self-reflection before making excuses for hate. None of these excuses are valid, they have all been tried before, and all these ideas such as "punching up" have been discredited since the 40s. Those sympathetic to Hitlerian race theory should not be sources of moral or ethical guidance.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    I gave no excuses, simply a rationale. Your counter example is also invalid, as Jews were clearly a minority in Germany, and a historically disadvantaged one at that.
    - rsj_hn 6y ago
      Numerical minority or majority is just one possible criteria for defining power and influence, and given that it is up the person justifying the hate to define their own criteria, they will pick whatever is convenient. E.g. over-representation in key areas is enough. But if you think a numerical majority is the sole basis for "punching up", then the Peninsulares must have been punching up against native born citizens in Gran Colombia. Or the Jacobins must have been punching up against the peasant-farmers in France. Or the urban Chinese Communists must have been punching up against farmers in the provinces. So of course, these criteria are picked when convenient and discarded otherwise.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        Again, I mentioned the Jews in Germany were also historically disadvantaged, so even by my exact wording you are failing to address the complete statement. That said, I never said I subscribe to the theory, I’m simply explaining it. Perhaps you should save your half-arguments for someone who’s espousing it.

by rsj_hn 6y ago

Apocryphon 6y ago

Larger groups of people tend to be able to defend themselves more easily than smaller groups. There's a power differential in numbers. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's probably based in the same sort of logic that is behind guarding against the tyranny of the majority. It's the concept of punching up vs. punching down. Except in some cases like, Saddam Hussein's minority Sunni dictatorship over mostly-Shia Iraq, historically majority populations do better than minority ones. So they have less to lose when offended.

rsj_hn 6y ago
"Punching up" is just an excuse for racism. See Matt Taibbi's review of some popular pro-racism books here: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility I recommend watching the excellent BBC documentary World At War (1973) -- You can watch it on Daily Motion (c.f. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p7c46 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p7c46). They had western reporters interview Nazi officials asking them to explain all the anti-jewish policies, and the answer is basically "We're punching up." They argued that jews were overrepresented and had too much power in German society; "we are merely righting the balance". In fact, if you talk to any racist, they will give you plenty of reasons explaining why the group of people they hate deserve to be hated and that he is merely "righting the balance". Everyone believes they are acting in the name of ultimate justice and that the hated group is deserving of the abuse. So I would recommend some self-reflection before making excuses for hate. None of these excuses are valid, they have all been tried before, and all these ideas such as "punching up" have been discredited since the 40s. Those sympathetic to Hitlerian race theory should not be sources of moral or ethical guidance.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  I gave no excuses, simply a rationale. Your counter example is also invalid, as Jews were clearly a minority in Germany, and a historically disadvantaged one at that.
  - rsj_hn 6y ago
    Numerical minority or majority is just one possible criteria for defining power and influence, and given that it is up the person justifying the hate to define their own criteria, they will pick whatever is convenient. E.g. over-representation in key areas is enough. But if you think a numerical majority is the sole basis for "punching up", then the Peninsulares must have been punching up against native born citizens in Gran Colombia. Or the Jacobins must have been punching up against the peasant-farmers in France. Or the urban Chinese Communists must have been punching up against farmers in the provinces. So of course, these criteria are picked when convenient and discarded otherwise.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Again, I mentioned the Jews in Germany were also historically disadvantaged, so even by my exact wording you are failing to address the complete statement. That said, I never said I subscribe to the theory, I’m simply explaining it. Perhaps you should save your half-arguments for someone who’s espousing it.