9 ms·

Weird... the article never examines why people’s trust must be so low. Instead, the author suggests that America’s CEOs should convince us to trust the media.

Weird... the article never examines why people’s trust must be so low. Instead, the author suggests that America’s CEOs should convince us to trust the media. There is not a single sentence of introspection as to whether the media actually can’t be trusted. What’s the saying about convincing someone of something their job depends on them not understanding? Hm...

proc0 6y ago
Confusing the symptom with the solution, lol.
ForHackernews 6y ago
It's Axios. They don't do "why" type analysis and punditry, they just report the bare facts in a bullet-point listicle style. Supposedly this is a bold new format of journalism that will win back trust and cater to our foreshortened attention spans. It regularly wins praise on this site and elsewhere, but I find it shallow.
- wobbly_bush 6y ago
  I prefer their format over articles which read like they are start of a novel/novella. There is definitely lesser information present in them compared to others of greater length though.
  - hntrader 6y ago
    "start of a novel" The New Yorker is the worst offender here. Could compress the typical article by 3x and not lose any information. I think it's largely pretension.
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  CEOs being the saviours is a fact?
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    It's a fact that some "Edelman" who published the survey this article is reporting on believes that they are.
- dlkf 6y ago
  They do add punditry. They just slide it in subtly and don't acknowledge it, which is vastly more dangerous than having an opinion column beside your news articles. Consider this sentence: > Media outlets can continue to report reliable facts, but that won't turn the trend around on its own. (Emphasis mine) What are we to make of the text before the comma? It straightforwardly implies that the media is, and has been, fully reliable. Is this a "bare fact" or is it opinion?
  - dexen 6y ago
    Excellent explanation and example, thank you.
  - everybodyknows 6y ago
    A few lines above your quote, we have this: > Axios has a stated mission to "help restore trust in fact-based news. And a link onward to a piece with the title Our promises to you: Axios Bill of Rights: https://www.axios.com/axios-bill-of-rights-f4f96067-ff4c-47d5-bdf2-39d536108a0c.html https://www.axios.com/axios-bill-of-rights-f4f96067-ff4c-47d... First, the US Constitution's Bill Of Rights is not a list of promises; rather a list of demands that the central authority limit impositions of its power upon regional authorities and free citizens. Axios tries to slip into the more respected clothing that is the work of others -- but it does not fit. Worse follows. As prolog to the Axios "Rights" we find this: >Why it matters: Nothing matters more than winning the war for truth. https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-21510,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-21... What is or could be a "war for truth"? When has gaining truth ever been the aim of war? When relations have degenerated to a state of warfare, hasn't truth always suffered violence rather than been "won"?
Pils 6y ago
Looking at the actual press release this listicle was based off of, the countries with highest media trust are, in order: Indonesia (73%), China (70%) and India (69%)[0]. These countries are ranked #119, #177 and #142 on the Press Freedom Index[1]. I think "trust CEOs" is significantly less supported by Edelman's data than "reduce press freedom, emulate China," but I'm just a random internet commentator, not a high quality journalist like Felix Salmon. I'd also note that the 3% drop also appears to be barely outside the survey's margin of error (survey population size: n=1,150). [0] Media trust chart is on page 49 https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2021-01/2021%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer_U.S.%20Country%20Report_Clean.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2021-0... [1] https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2020 https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2020
- Simulacra 6y ago
  Could this article be propaganda?
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    More likely just run-of-the-mill journalistic statistics ignorance, which seems commonplace in US media these days, combined with deadline and story quota pressures.
    - tinus_hn 6y ago
      I love how you’re accusing a journalist of lying, as a defense of journalists being accused of lying. ‘Oh well, that’s just run-of-the-mill journalistic statistics ignorance’
      - bobthepanda 6y ago
        I don’t think it’s necessarily secret that since Craigslist traditional newsrooms have hemorrhaged money and staff. Sometimes things are malicious, sometimes things are ignorant, and sometimes it’s a mix. Is trying to be more specific about causes a “defence”?
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> There is not a single sentence of introspection as to whether the media actually can’t be trusted. Some recent headlines (from "moderate" publications - this is just one interest/topic so consider all the other unhinged propaganda they are peddling): https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372203410297032716 https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372203410297032716 I'm not shocked considering most are owned by people who shouldn't be let anywhere near media (Bezos, Murdoch, Bloomberg etc) so the question "who profits from the narrative" along with over-consumption of news (compared to pre-Internet) is more urgent than it used to be. They not only control the narrative but also are able to tap into Intel journos generate (before it is news). The Anglosphere _mainstream_ media seems to me a lot more toxic than anything I consume in other languages. No of them are ranked in top-25: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking with US at #45 being far behind "shithole countries". Also with media in other countries people _know_ the media is corrupt because everything else is corrupt too. The corruption in US/Europe isn't any less present (compared to India or China). It has only moved further up (cost) so to "benefit", it takes 10s of thousands wired through shell/shelf companies rather than slipping a dirty cop some cash. Also BBC is now controlled by ghouls: The New BBC Chairman has Donated OVER £400,000 to the Conservatives https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/ https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-...
- MikeUt 6y ago
  > Some recent headlines Some more headlines and excerpts: Biden withdraws Trump rule on schools disclosing ties to Chinese state-run Confucius Institutes - https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/news/biden-trump-rule-schools-disclosing-chinese-state-run-confucius-institutes https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/news/biden-trump-rul... [China] has spent more than $158 million on schools in the U.S. since 2006. Many colleges didn't reveal they've accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from China despite Education Department guidance that requires reporting of foreign gifts. - https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/china-college-confucius-institutes-1221768 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/china-college-conf... Businesses with Chinese connections gave Australia's major parties more than $5.5 million between 2013 and 2015, making them easily the largest source of foreign-linked donations. - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-strong-ties-china-political-donations/7768012 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-str... Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... Chinese students in Australia fear reprisals at home if they speak out, inquiry hears - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chinese-students-in-australia-fear-reprisals-at-home-if-they-speak-out-inquiry-hears https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chine... Perry Link, emeritus professor of East Asian Studies at Princeton University, says that [..] American scholars practice self-censorship about China and adopt the official narrative of the Chinese regime when talking about sensitive issues. “We don’t talk about ‘Taiwan independence.’ We talk about ‘the cross-Strait relations.’ We don’t talk about ‘the occupation of Tibet.’ We don’t call the June 4th Massacre ‘massacre.’ - https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misleads-about-china_2720496.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misle... Leica Camera has sought to distance itself from a promotional video depicting photographers covering the deadly Tiananmen Square crackdown three decades ago, after it landed the German company in hot water in China. - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/leica-camera-backs-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/lei... Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... Uyghur students in Egypt detained, sent back to China - https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a88ea.html https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a88ea.html Nearly a dozen Uyghurs repatriated from Malaysia to China are sent to prison for ‘separatism.’ - https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/malaysia-12202012181314.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/malaysia-12202012181... A national fibreoptic backbone will be built for Pakistan not only for internet traffic, Dawn reports, but also for terrestrial distribution of broadcast TV, which will cooperate with Chinese media in the “dissemination of Chinese culture”. - https://indianexpress.com/article/india/china-pakistan-economic-corridor-politics-security-risk-amid-sweeping-china-influence-4657511/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/china-pakistan-econo... I guess it's easy to portray this as unhinged if you don't include any headlines with substance.
nkurz 6y ago
Today's [flagged][dead] article from Glenn Greenwald seems quite relevant: "Journalists, Illustrating How They Operate, Yesterday Spread a Significant Lie All Over Twitter" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26509654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26509654 https://greenwald.substack.com/p/journalists-illustrating-how-they https://greenwald.substack.com/p/journalists-illustrating-ho....
- cozuya 6y ago
  What are some media sources that we should be reading and listening to?
  - nkurz 6y ago
    I think the best hope is to cast a wide net, and hope that you can find sources that have complementary biases. You shouldn't avoid the mainstream US media, but you should be aware that many apparently independent sources share similar blindspots and prejudices. Within the US, I think a lot of the better writers are now working freelance and publishing on Substack: Glenn Greenwald, Matt Yglesias, and Bari Weiss come to mind. Outside the US, the Canadian, Australian, and British press sometimes have a different slant. Aljazeera often does investigative journalism with a different perspective. I haven't found any great single source in English, and don't read any other languages well enough to rely on them.
    - taisalie 6y ago
      Reverse your comment. The obvious exit is non-English media, so get on that. English media is hostage to English Twitter which can't look away from the self-destruction of US/UK "first world" cultural and military hegemony. It's amazing how much non-English news reads/sounds like... news.
    - cozuya 6y ago
      I see that we should "cast a wide net" by reading 3 noted anti-leftists. Who is your favorite author that identifies as a progressive?
theknocker 6y ago
Anyone who has lived on earth for more than five minutes knows the media can’t be trusted.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
Why should anyone but shareholders trust CEOs? I'm asking this in earnest. If the primary goals of a company essentially boil down to personal and shareholder enrichment then why should I not consider all large companies an existential threat to my life itself?

proc0 6y ago

Confusing the symptom with the solution, lol.

ForHackernews 6y ago

It's Axios. They don't do "why" type analysis and punditry, they just report the bare facts in a bullet-point listicle style. Supposedly this is a bold new format of journalism that will win back trust and cater to our foreshortened attention spans. It regularly wins praise on this site and elsewhere, but I find it shallow.

wobbly_bush 6y ago
I prefer their format over articles which read like they are start of a novel/novella. There is definitely lesser information present in them compared to others of greater length though.
- hntrader 6y ago
  "start of a novel" The New Yorker is the worst offender here. Could compress the typical article by 3x and not lose any information. I think it's largely pretension.
Ericson2314 6y ago
CEOs being the saviours is a fact?
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  It's a fact that some "Edelman" who published the survey this article is reporting on believes that they are.
dlkf 6y ago
They do add punditry. They just slide it in subtly and don't acknowledge it, which is vastly more dangerous than having an opinion column beside your news articles. Consider this sentence: > Media outlets can continue to report reliable facts, but that won't turn the trend around on its own. (Emphasis mine) What are we to make of the text before the comma? It straightforwardly implies that the media is, and has been, fully reliable. Is this a "bare fact" or is it opinion?
- dexen 6y ago
  Excellent explanation and example, thank you.
- everybodyknows 6y ago
  A few lines above your quote, we have this: > Axios has a stated mission to "help restore trust in fact-based news. And a link onward to a piece with the title Our promises to you: Axios Bill of Rights: https://www.axios.com/axios-bill-of-rights-f4f96067-ff4c-47d5-bdf2-39d536108a0c.html https://www.axios.com/axios-bill-of-rights-f4f96067-ff4c-47d... First, the US Constitution's Bill Of Rights is not a list of promises; rather a list of demands that the central authority limit impositions of its power upon regional authorities and free citizens. Axios tries to slip into the more respected clothing that is the work of others -- but it does not fit. Worse follows. As prolog to the Axios "Rights" we find this: >Why it matters: Nothing matters more than winning the war for truth. https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-21510,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-21... What is or could be a "war for truth"? When has gaining truth ever been the aim of war? When relations have degenerated to a state of warfare, hasn't truth always suffered violence rather than been "won"?

Pils 6y ago

Looking at the actual press release this listicle was based off of, the countries with highest media trust are, in order: Indonesia (73%), China (70%) and India (69%)[0]. These countries are ranked #119, #177 and #142 on the Press Freedom Index[1]. I think "trust CEOs" is significantly less supported by Edelman's data than "reduce press freedom, emulate China," but I'm just a random internet commentator, not a high quality journalist like Felix Salmon. I'd also note that the 3% drop also appears to be barely outside the survey's margin of error (survey population size: n=1,150). [0] Media trust chart is on page 49 https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2021-01/2021%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer_U.S.%20Country%20Report_Clean.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2021-0... [1] https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2020 https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2020

Simulacra 6y ago
Could this article be propaganda?
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  More likely just run-of-the-mill journalistic statistics ignorance, which seems commonplace in US media these days, combined with deadline and story quota pressures.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    I love how you’re accusing a journalist of lying, as a defense of journalists being accused of lying. ‘Oh well, that’s just run-of-the-mill journalistic statistics ignorance’
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      I don’t think it’s necessarily secret that since Craigslist traditional newsrooms have hemorrhaged money and staff. Sometimes things are malicious, sometimes things are ignorant, and sometimes it’s a mix. Is trying to be more specific about causes a “defence”?

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> There is not a single sentence of introspection as to whether the media actually can’t be trusted. Some recent headlines (from "moderate" publications - this is just one interest/topic so consider all the other unhinged propaganda they are peddling): https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372203410297032716 https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1372203410297032716 I'm not shocked considering most are owned by people who shouldn't be let anywhere near media (Bezos, Murdoch, Bloomberg etc) so the question "who profits from the narrative" along with over-consumption of news (compared to pre-Internet) is more urgent than it used to be. They not only control the narrative but also are able to tap into Intel journos generate (before it is news). The Anglosphere _mainstream_ media seems to me a lot more toxic than anything I consume in other languages. No of them are ranked in top-25: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking with US at #45 being far behind "shithole countries". Also with media in other countries people _know_ the media is corrupt because everything else is corrupt too. The corruption in US/Europe isn't any less present (compared to India or China). It has only moved further up (cost) so to "benefit", it takes 10s of thousands wired through shell/shelf companies rather than slipping a dirty cop some cash. Also BBC is now controlled by ghouls: The New BBC Chairman has Donated OVER £400,000 to the Conservatives https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/ https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-...

MikeUt 6y ago
> Some recent headlines Some more headlines and excerpts: Biden withdraws Trump rule on schools disclosing ties to Chinese state-run Confucius Institutes - https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/news/biden-trump-rule-schools-disclosing-chinese-state-run-confucius-institutes https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/news/biden-trump-rul... [China] has spent more than $158 million on schools in the U.S. since 2006. Many colleges didn't reveal they've accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from China despite Education Department guidance that requires reporting of foreign gifts. - https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/china-college-confucius-institutes-1221768 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/china-college-conf... Businesses with Chinese connections gave Australia's major parties more than $5.5 million between 2013 and 2015, making them easily the largest source of foreign-linked donations. - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-strong-ties-china-political-donations/7768012 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/australian-groups-str... Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-china-tv-protesters-hong-kong-tim-cook https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch... Chinese students in Australia fear reprisals at home if they speak out, inquiry hears - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chinese-students-in-australia-fear-reprisals-at-home-if-they-speak-out-inquiry-hears https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/12/chine... Perry Link, emeritus professor of East Asian Studies at Princeton University, says that [..] American scholars practice self-censorship about China and adopt the official narrative of the Chinese regime when talking about sensitive issues. “We don’t talk about ‘Taiwan independence.’ We talk about ‘the cross-Strait relations.’ We don’t talk about ‘the occupation of Tibet.’ We don’t call the June 4th Massacre ‘massacre.’ - https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misleads-about-china_2720496.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-the-american-academy-misle... Leica Camera has sought to distance itself from a promotional video depicting photographers covering the deadly Tiananmen Square crackdown three decades ago, after it landed the German company in hot water in China. - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/leica-camera-backs-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/lei... Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... Uyghur students in Egypt detained, sent back to China - https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a88ea.html https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a88ea.html Nearly a dozen Uyghurs repatriated from Malaysia to China are sent to prison for ‘separatism.’ - https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/malaysia-12202012181314.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/malaysia-12202012181... A national fibreoptic backbone will be built for Pakistan not only for internet traffic, Dawn reports, but also for terrestrial distribution of broadcast TV, which will cooperate with Chinese media in the “dissemination of Chinese culture”. - https://indianexpress.com/article/india/china-pakistan-economic-corridor-politics-security-risk-amid-sweeping-china-influence-4657511/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/china-pakistan-econo... I guess it's easy to portray this as unhinged if you don't include any headlines with substance.

nkurz 6y ago

Today's [flagged][dead] article from Glenn Greenwald seems quite relevant: "Journalists, Illustrating How They Operate, Yesterday Spread a Significant Lie All Over Twitter" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26509654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26509654 https://greenwald.substack.com/p/journalists-illustrating-how-they https://greenwald.substack.com/p/journalists-illustrating-ho....

cozuya 6y ago
What are some media sources that we should be reading and listening to?
- nkurz 6y ago
  I think the best hope is to cast a wide net, and hope that you can find sources that have complementary biases. You shouldn't avoid the mainstream US media, but you should be aware that many apparently independent sources share similar blindspots and prejudices. Within the US, I think a lot of the better writers are now working freelance and publishing on Substack: Glenn Greenwald, Matt Yglesias, and Bari Weiss come to mind. Outside the US, the Canadian, Australian, and British press sometimes have a different slant. Aljazeera often does investigative journalism with a different perspective. I haven't found any great single source in English, and don't read any other languages well enough to rely on them.
  - taisalie 6y ago
    Reverse your comment. The obvious exit is non-English media, so get on that. English media is hostage to English Twitter which can't look away from the self-destruction of US/UK "first world" cultural and military hegemony. It's amazing how much non-English news reads/sounds like... news.
  - cozuya 6y ago
    I see that we should "cast a wide net" by reading 3 noted anti-leftists. Who is your favorite author that identifies as a progressive?

theknocker 6y ago

Anyone who has lived on earth for more than five minutes knows the media can’t be trusted.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

Why should anyone but shareholders trust CEOs? I'm asking this in earnest. If the primary goals of a company essentially boil down to personal and shareholder enrichment then why should I not consider all large companies an existential threat to my life itself?