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>> the spirit of open source > This is not a thing that exists. What we have are licenses, not ghosts. Before we had open source, we released software as publ

>> the spirit of open source > This is not a thing that exists. What we have are licenses, not ghosts. Before we had open source, we released software as public domain. The spirit existed before the trademark phrase was even invented and long after people were already giving away their software for free because of the spirit of the community. We used to go to computer swap meets in fairgrounds buildings and buy boxes of floppy disks with random software on them just to see what was around, people uploaded it to BBSes and shared the work they did - we had Donationware, Shareware, Postcardware (a personal favorite), Beerware and everything in between which was 100% based on the spirit of the community. We just called most of it Freeware. We have licenses because the spirit was abused.

pessimizer 6y ago
You're projecting your good feelings about collaborating with other computer hobbyists onto a set of software licenses applied to extremely corporate, not-hobbyist software. And additionally complaining that the "abuse" of these licenses by massive corporations are keeping the authors of this software from getting rich. If you're doing this for the pure joy of programming, you're already rich in spirit - Amazon taking your software and using it is actually a tribute.
- stonesweep 6y ago
  I really don't think my comment said anything about people getting rich; I myself was involved in one report of GPL abuse to the EFF on behalf of Busybox, yet another early 2000s device created by 2 people in their bedroom who simply decided the license didn't apply and releasing the source code was not their responsibility - Busybox had a "Hall of Shame" web page up back then, you can still see it in the Internet Archive. It was pretty rampant, the sharks saw "free code" in the water and simply had the attitude "so, sue me and prove it in court" about early GPL. It took us collectively a decade or more to actual make things like the GPL enforced in courts of law, the dawn of our digital age started with bad guys trying to exploit the good guys who gave away code. My thought is that you're focusing on the "gratis" part of FOSS, whereas I'm over here in the "libre" side of the house - as a (now) Linux systems guy, when (foo) doesn't work I reach and go down that rabbit hole of code until I figure out what's wrong and we fix things - that is what Open Source is about to me, it has no underpinnings of monetary compensation, it's all about two (sic) people who don't know each other being able to randomly see each other's code to solve the problem at hand (and then possibly submit fixes, bug reports, etc.). I've traced tons of open source software to solve problems both personally and professionally. Getting paid for open source is a relatively new thing in my life timeline, I don't honestly subscribe to that idea but to each their own. I do, however, recognize the time effort and energy it takes to create said software, so I personally take these tech dollars I make at $job and donate to a lot of open source initiatives, coders and even public radio stations bringing me "free" music. There's no such thing as a free lunch as a wise sci-fi author once wrote.
pullmn 6y ago
Do you include piracy in this? As I remember it the 'community' was completely divided for most of its existence between those who held that the spirit meant writing your own software and sharing that of others who had agreed to do so, and a much larger group who believed that the spirit consisted of sharing anything you wanted, including plenty of closed and for-pay commercial software.
- stonesweep 6y ago
  > Do you include piracy in this? No I do not (I don't deny it was/is a thing), as I feel that was a different community (and it still exists today) - yes, the same technology was used but no, they were not/are not the same community. These are two distinct communities sharing common technology (just like Linux ISOs and pirated software are both distributed over BitTorrent today - the technology has changed but both groups still share it's use). I knew/know people from both communities, they're just two different groups of people who might happen to end up at a party together, that's about it really. I personally don't condone piracy, but then again I've been living inside Linux for 20 years so I don't really encounter it these days. Me personally, I ran a BBS under OS/2 and was part of Fidonet (I actually roomed in college years with the local Fidonet hub guy), wrote my own widgets in TurboPascal and distributed the binaries and source without any licenses (if we even had any at the time), some of it can still be found in those old CD collections that folks used to sell. I lost my own source code over the years and was able to recover some of it out of those archives. :) (my career steered away from programming into systems engineering, not a coder by trade)
  - pullmn 6y ago
    Well, I think a lot of the people who were doing piracy would argue that they embodied the spirit of the community, and the anti-pirates were just a small minority who had a particular approach. So I don't think it's possible for you speaking alone to say what was or wasn't the spirit or the community.
    - stonesweep 6y ago
      We're both talking about the open source community, right? This was the Parent comment I replied to and directly quoted, and I'm not seeing why you're intent on focusing on something I'm not talking about. You seem to have an axe to grind here on this specific topic of piracy, not open source.

pessimizer 6y ago

You're projecting your good feelings about collaborating with other computer hobbyists onto a set of software licenses applied to extremely corporate, not-hobbyist software. And additionally complaining that the "abuse" of these licenses by massive corporations are keeping the authors of this software from getting rich. If you're doing this for the pure joy of programming, you're already rich in spirit - Amazon taking your software and using it is actually a tribute.

stonesweep 6y ago
I really don't think my comment said anything about people getting rich; I myself was involved in one report of GPL abuse to the EFF on behalf of Busybox, yet another early 2000s device created by 2 people in their bedroom who simply decided the license didn't apply and releasing the source code was not their responsibility - Busybox had a "Hall of Shame" web page up back then, you can still see it in the Internet Archive. It was pretty rampant, the sharks saw "free code" in the water and simply had the attitude "so, sue me and prove it in court" about early GPL. It took us collectively a decade or more to actual make things like the GPL enforced in courts of law, the dawn of our digital age started with bad guys trying to exploit the good guys who gave away code. My thought is that you're focusing on the "gratis" part of FOSS, whereas I'm over here in the "libre" side of the house - as a (now) Linux systems guy, when (foo) doesn't work I reach and go down that rabbit hole of code until I figure out what's wrong and we fix things - that is what Open Source is about to me, it has no underpinnings of monetary compensation, it's all about two (sic) people who don't know each other being able to randomly see each other's code to solve the problem at hand (and then possibly submit fixes, bug reports, etc.). I've traced tons of open source software to solve problems both personally and professionally. Getting paid for open source is a relatively new thing in my life timeline, I don't honestly subscribe to that idea but to each their own. I do, however, recognize the time effort and energy it takes to create said software, so I personally take these tech dollars I make at $job and donate to a lot of open source initiatives, coders and even public radio stations bringing me "free" music. There's no such thing as a free lunch as a wise sci-fi author once wrote.

pullmn 6y ago

Do you include piracy in this? As I remember it the 'community' was completely divided for most of its existence between those who held that the spirit meant writing your own software and sharing that of others who had agreed to do so, and a much larger group who believed that the spirit consisted of sharing anything you wanted, including plenty of closed and for-pay commercial software.

stonesweep 6y ago
> Do you include piracy in this? No I do not (I don't deny it was/is a thing), as I feel that was a different community (and it still exists today) - yes, the same technology was used but no, they were not/are not the same community. These are two distinct communities sharing common technology (just like Linux ISOs and pirated software are both distributed over BitTorrent today - the technology has changed but both groups still share it's use). I knew/know people from both communities, they're just two different groups of people who might happen to end up at a party together, that's about it really. I personally don't condone piracy, but then again I've been living inside Linux for 20 years so I don't really encounter it these days. Me personally, I ran a BBS under OS/2 and was part of Fidonet (I actually roomed in college years with the local Fidonet hub guy), wrote my own widgets in TurboPascal and distributed the binaries and source without any licenses (if we even had any at the time), some of it can still be found in those old CD collections that folks used to sell. I lost my own source code over the years and was able to recover some of it out of those archives. :) (my career steered away from programming into systems engineering, not a coder by trade)
- pullmn 6y ago
  Well, I think a lot of the people who were doing piracy would argue that they embodied the spirit of the community, and the anti-pirates were just a small minority who had a particular approach. So I don't think it's possible for you speaking alone to say what was or wasn't the spirit or the community.
  - stonesweep 6y ago
    We're both talking about the open source community, right? This was the Parent comment I replied to and directly quoted, and I'm not seeing why you're intent on focusing on something I'm not talking about. You seem to have an axe to grind here on this specific topic of piracy, not open source.