4 ms·

Isn’t there a physical limit on delay that prohibits live, non-co-located music making?

by lgrebe 6y ago

BjoernKW 6y ago
There's the speed of light on one hand and a maximum latency of roughly 30 ms, which is the boundary below which the human mind perceives sound as synchronous, on the other. However, neither does prohibit non-colocated live music altogether.
- ericwood 6y ago
  Keep in mind the threshold is much lower when playing an instrument is involved. For electric guitar, for example, I've found anything above 13ms is perceptible and makes playing in time more difficult. This paper dives further into it more than I can anecdotally: https://online.ucpress.edu/mp/article-abstract/36/1/109/92063/Action-sound-Latency-and-the-Perceived-Quality-of https://online.ucpress.edu/mp/article-abstract/36/1/109/9206...
wishinghand 6y ago
I recall another project for this, Jacktrip, stating that people need to be within 500 miles of each other, all else being equal.
cma 6y ago
A marching band might span a whole American football field during a performance. That's potentially 135ms to the center of the field from the edge or more from a corner. Their type of music may be somewhat designed around it as a limitation as well as having a visual metronome in the conductor (though you could estimate one and even make it audible instead of visual using half round-trip-time for internet jam sessions). People seated at near field level at opposite corners may hear a 350ms+ difference in some instruments, but they may spread them out so that it just sounds like a reverb/wash of echoes. For these kind of apps wear headphones and you cut around 3ms per meter you are away from your speakers, due to speed of sound.
analog31 6y ago
I've been jamming with some friends on Jamulus. A complicating factor is that the effect of latency depends on what instrument you play. When I play an electric instrument (bass guitar) that makes little or no sound of its own, then it's easy to monitor my timing in the mix through headphones, and my fingers just adapt by playing ahead of the beat as needed. Our bodies have to do that anyway in order to play in time because initiating a note happens before the note comes out of virtually any instrument. It's much harder when you don't have that isolation, for instance when I play an acoustic instrument, I have to turn up my phones to drown out the acoustic sound. And it gets still harder if you hear that instrument by bone conduction, e.g., horns or voice. The band adapts by the "easy" instruments taking charge of the tempo and letting the other instruments float around a bit. Still, it takes a lot of concentration to avoid getting lost, and just doesn't sound as good as a live performance of a "tight" band. The band members have agreed that it's better than not playing at all, but might not be a good listening experience for an audience. Not necessarily because the delays are perceptible but because it sounds like the band is struggling to stay together. Of course other things are happening as well, such as lack of visual cues. Fortunately we're all "of a certain age," and between the weather warming up and us getting vaccinated, we'll be playing together again.
Gravityloss 6y ago
Sound travels only 3 meters in 10 ms so even bands playing in the same physical space have to deal with such latencies.
- Gravityloss 6y ago
  But when playing guitar with the computer, I do hate the delay. I prefer to use the "direct monitor" feature of the sound card.

Isn’t there a physical limit on delay that prohibits live, non-co-located music making?

by lgrebe 6y ago

Isn’t there a physical limit on delay that prohibits live, non-co-located music making?

There's the speed of light on one hand and a maximum latency of roughly 30 ms, which is the boundary below which the human mind perceives sound as synchronous, on the other. However, neither does prohibit non-colocated live music altogether.

ericwood 6y ago
Keep in mind the threshold is much lower when playing an instrument is involved. For electric guitar, for example, I've found anything above 13ms is perceptible and makes playing in time more difficult. This paper dives further into it more than I can anecdotally: https://online.ucpress.edu/mp/article-abstract/36/1/109/92063/Action-sound-Latency-and-the-Perceived-Quality-of https://online.ucpress.edu/mp/article-abstract/36/1/109/9206...

wishinghand 6y ago

I recall another project for this, Jacktrip, stating that people need to be within 500 miles of each other, all else being equal.

cma 6y ago

A marching band might span a whole American football field during a performance. That's potentially 135ms to the center of the field from the edge or more from a corner. Their type of music may be somewhat designed around it as a limitation as well as having a visual metronome in the conductor (though you could estimate one and even make it audible instead of visual using half round-trip-time for internet jam sessions). People seated at near field level at opposite corners may hear a 350ms+ difference in some instruments, but they may spread them out so that it just sounds like a reverb/wash of echoes. For these kind of apps wear headphones and you cut around 3ms per meter you are away from your speakers, due to speed of sound.

analog31 6y ago

I've been jamming with some friends on Jamulus. A complicating factor is that the effect of latency depends on what instrument you play. When I play an electric instrument (bass guitar) that makes little or no sound of its own, then it's easy to monitor my timing in the mix through headphones, and my fingers just adapt by playing ahead of the beat as needed. Our bodies have to do that anyway in order to play in time because initiating a note happens before the note comes out of virtually any instrument. It's much harder when you don't have that isolation, for instance when I play an acoustic instrument, I have to turn up my phones to drown out the acoustic sound. And it gets still harder if you hear that instrument by bone conduction, e.g., horns or voice. The band adapts by the "easy" instruments taking charge of the tempo and letting the other instruments float around a bit. Still, it takes a lot of concentration to avoid getting lost, and just doesn't sound as good as a live performance of a "tight" band. The band members have agreed that it's better than not playing at all, but might not be a good listening experience for an audience. Not necessarily because the delays are perceptible but because it sounds like the band is struggling to stay together. Of course other things are happening as well, such as lack of visual cues. Fortunately we're all "of a certain age," and between the weather warming up and us getting vaccinated, we'll be playing together again.

Gravityloss 6y ago

Sound travels only 3 meters in 10 ms so even bands playing in the same physical space have to deal with such latencies.

Gravityloss 6y ago
But when playing guitar with the computer, I do hate the delay. I prefer to use the "direct monitor" feature of the sound card.