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There isn't any gain for home networking. The gain is for enterprise applications that can now migrate a software-defined network to a completely different infr

There isn't any gain for home networking. The gain is for enterprise applications that can now migrate a software-defined network to a completely different infrastructure provider without having to change the way they do monitoring, log collection, storage provisioning, DNS migrates with it for free, etc. Maybe, if you're lucky, you had some set of really good and reliable Sys Admins that figured out a robust way to script and configure the setup process of your original on-premise data center and they captured that in very good, well-maintained documentation. If you're even luckier, maybe those same guys still work for you. If not, well, Kubernetes provides an open standard that a lot of different people know how to use and the documentation for how everything is setup is directly in your source control. There's nothing exactly unique about this, but it is an actual open standard. It hasn't been owned by Google for years. It's owned by a non-profit. It's open source. If your deployments work on a cluster provided by one Kubernetes engine implementation, it'll work on any of them. You can roll your own, use GKE, EKS, whatever Microsoft offers, and it'll work in exactly the same way wherever you go. For one person, this means nothing. This guy is just doing it for fun. But for organizations that used to lose millions of dollars a year and sometimes their entire market position thanks to vendor lock in or had to experience months of downtime for a data center migration, they may find something like this useful. Or maybe you just don't want to rely too heavily on Dennis Nedry and want to be able to bring in anyone with a couple years of experience using an open source, open standard toolset who can come in and be reasonably expected to understand how your system works pretty quickly without needing ten years of tribal knowledge.

politician 6y ago
> There isn't any gain for home networking. The gain is for enterprise applications that can now migrate a software-defined network to a completely different infrastructure provider without having to change the way they do monitoring, log collection, storage provisioning, DNS migrates with it for free, etc. It sounds like you're making the argument that deploying k8s for a startup is an extreme case of premature optimization.
- anthonyskipper 6y ago
  Nah, it's par for course for startups for the following reasons... You can get tons of credits for your startup, typically hundreds of thousands from Microsoft, Amazon, etc. -- Eventually you run out of credits, so you switch providers. I did this 3 times at a startup and got three years of free infrastructure. If you are selling enterprise software, then you use k8s so you can deploy at enterprise without having to integrate with all the wacky requirements. You can build a saas that offers isolated service nodes on k8s infra pretty easy if you just give everyone a small vm with a k8s cluster on it. If you use a scale to zero model, your infra costs are a lot cheaper. Simiarly the auto-scaling k8s capabilities are really nice and it's awesome to be able to easily build systems that can scale up massively. You never know when you r startup will get popular.
- bronson 6y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "deploy". If you mean assembling your own k8s infrastructure by spinning up machines, then you're right. If you mean deploying your software on managed k8s infrastructure, then this an outstanding use of your startup's time. You will be able to find plenty of developers already familiar with the workflow, and you'll have a straightforward time growing and deploying your app on different providers. It cleanly side-steps many production pitfalls that burned our time 10 years ago.
- p_l 6y ago
  My first, original production kubernetes cluster existed precisely because it lowered our costs - ridiculously so. Because all that above? It comes with a system that will actively help you binpack your workloads as much as possible into the compute you give it. Your usual "throw separate instances"? Can get expensive quick, especially if you're not aggressively modifying instance sizes. As for "lol just use Heroku"... I call that kind of company "bankrupt", but that's probably because the difference between cost of infrastructure and cost of engineer time is wildly different in my area to SV.
- threeseed 6y ago
  It's very frustrating that on HN of all places there is still this constant belief that all startups are the same and are building basic web apps. Many types of startups will benefit from K8s right from day one.
rektide 6y ago
> There isn't any gain for home networking. The gain is for enterprise applications that can now migrate a software-defined network to a completely different infrastructure provider without having to change the way they do monitoring, log collection, storage provisioning, DNS migrates with it for free, etc. This is an unbelievable amount of gate-keeping hogwash. I don't know who this person is that they think they can arbitrate what is a good usage & what cases this is too-powerful too-interesting too-useful to bother using it in. There is so so so much fear & doubt & scare in this post. Screw this gate-keeping crap. > Maybe, if you're lucky, you had some set of really good and reliable Sys Admins that figured out a robust way to script and configure the setup process of your original on-premise data center and they captured that in very good, well-maintained documentation. If you're even luckier, maybe those same guys still work for you. "Only us good right & virtuous & amazing engineers can handle this! This is too pure, too amazing for mortals! They're wasting their time! They'll get the configuration wrong! They're bad people. Only professionals are qualified to play with Kubernetes!" UGH ENOUGH. Stop this terrible attitude. This is so down-talk-y. Please don't assume, please don't dictate your limited terms to the world. Let the world try. Let us not be cowed, & afraid, to use good tech, by these scare words. As it turns out, it's just not that hard. It's a better environment, a better world. There are lots of home users using Kubernetes. It doesn't take a colossal investment. It's fairly secure out of the box, at least if you're not trying to run a multi-tenant home. It just works. This blog post shows that! It's really simple. See? Look. Lots of projects: https://github.com/k8s-at-home/awesome-home-kubernetes https://github.com/k8s-at-home/awesome-home-kubernetes . Lots. Good people, just trying. Not taking the poison words to be afraid, that this is too hard. "For one person, this means nothing. This guy is just doing it for fun." What a BAD ATTITUDE. Snarking & being mean, to people out there, trying to find better ways to do things, to create shared, meaningful value. With good, autonomic systems. With reasonably competent free-to-everyone utility scale / cloud computing. Don't accept such words as these. Do not be afraid to involve yourselves. Do not be gate-kept like this. Run Kubernetes. Run good systems. Stop being sold on second, third rung systems. Believe in yourselves. Don't exclude yourself, be afraid. You are not saving yourselves any hardship by choosing lesser technology. You can run K3S in <20 minutes, and you can start loading amazing manifests & Charts seconds after. This blog write up shows that. IT MAKES PEOPLE AFRAID to think how democratic technology could be. Please allow yourself a moment of un-doubt where you consider, maybe, this has amazing value for the home, that it's already possibly incredibly robust, please consider that applying some manifests might be super easy. Please consider that blog posts are the canonical way to share work, before Kubernetes, but now I can link you to a repo full of people sharing manifests & charts & works, that stand a decent chance of running on any cloud or at home. There's a lot of sophisticated under-the-hood boons to running Kubernetes too, but as for what the home-user gains: it's amazing. It's easy to understand, eventually, and shared. Skills learned building one thing in Kubernetes parlay much better into doing other Kubernetes tasks, related or not so much. Kubernauts are growing & learning & exploring, in a far more communal, shared operational way than what loose daemon-monkey-wrenching spread-out weirdness came before. It's not hard, it's not weird, it's not for enterprise. It runs out of the box, nicely. It's for people who want a good means to think about & control a wide variety of digital things. People who want a reasonably consistent underpinning to their technical operations. The alternative, what we had been doing, is having a lot of different things that each had their own means to be thought of & controlled; dis-unified, chaotic, piece-meal, inconsistent. Come try a better more unified way of computing. Come try utility computing. It's for people, all people. Many of us believe it serves us all better.

politician 6y ago

anthonyskipper 6y ago
Nah, it's par for course for startups for the following reasons... You can get tons of credits for your startup, typically hundreds of thousands from Microsoft, Amazon, etc. -- Eventually you run out of credits, so you switch providers. I did this 3 times at a startup and got three years of free infrastructure. If you are selling enterprise software, then you use k8s so you can deploy at enterprise without having to integrate with all the wacky requirements. You can build a saas that offers isolated service nodes on k8s infra pretty easy if you just give everyone a small vm with a k8s cluster on it. If you use a scale to zero model, your infra costs are a lot cheaper. Simiarly the auto-scaling k8s capabilities are really nice and it's awesome to be able to easily build systems that can scale up massively. You never know when you r startup will get popular.
bronson 6y ago
Depends on what you mean by "deploy". If you mean assembling your own k8s infrastructure by spinning up machines, then you're right. If you mean deploying your software on managed k8s infrastructure, then this an outstanding use of your startup's time. You will be able to find plenty of developers already familiar with the workflow, and you'll have a straightforward time growing and deploying your app on different providers. It cleanly side-steps many production pitfalls that burned our time 10 years ago.
p_l 6y ago
My first, original production kubernetes cluster existed precisely because it lowered our costs - ridiculously so. Because all that above? It comes with a system that will actively help you binpack your workloads as much as possible into the compute you give it. Your usual "throw separate instances"? Can get expensive quick, especially if you're not aggressively modifying instance sizes. As for "lol just use Heroku"... I call that kind of company "bankrupt", but that's probably because the difference between cost of infrastructure and cost of engineer time is wildly different in my area to SV.
threeseed 6y ago
It's very frustrating that on HN of all places there is still this constant belief that all startups are the same and are building basic web apps. Many types of startups will benefit from K8s right from day one.

rektide 6y ago

> There isn't any gain for home networking. The gain is for enterprise applications that can now migrate a software-defined network to a completely different infrastructure provider without having to change the way they do monitoring, log collection, storage provisioning, DNS migrates with it for free, etc. This is an unbelievable amount of gate-keeping hogwash. I don't know who this person is that they think they can arbitrate what is a good usage & what cases this is too-powerful too-interesting too-useful to bother using it in. There is so so so much fear & doubt & scare in this post. Screw this gate-keeping crap. > Maybe, if you're lucky, you had some set of really good and reliable Sys Admins that figured out a robust way to script and configure the setup process of your original on-premise data center and they captured that in very good, well-maintained documentation. If you're even luckier, maybe those same guys still work for you. "Only us good right & virtuous & amazing engineers can handle this! This is too pure, too amazing for mortals! They're wasting their time! They'll get the configuration wrong! They're bad people. Only professionals are qualified to play with Kubernetes!" UGH ENOUGH. Stop this terrible attitude. This is so down-talk-y. Please don't assume, please don't dictate your limited terms to the world. Let the world try. Let us not be cowed, & afraid, to use good tech, by these scare words. As it turns out, it's just not that hard. It's a better environment, a better world. There are lots of home users using Kubernetes. It doesn't take a colossal investment. It's fairly secure out of the box, at least if you're not trying to run a multi-tenant home. It just works. This blog post shows that! It's really simple. See? Look. Lots of projects: https://github.com/k8s-at-home/awesome-home-kubernetes https://github.com/k8s-at-home/awesome-home-kubernetes . Lots. Good people, just trying. Not taking the poison words to be afraid, that this is too hard. "For one person, this means nothing. This guy is just doing it for fun." What a BAD ATTITUDE. Snarking & being mean, to people out there, trying to find better ways to do things, to create shared, meaningful value. With good, autonomic systems. With reasonably competent free-to-everyone utility scale / cloud computing. Don't accept such words as these. Do not be afraid to involve yourselves. Do not be gate-kept like this. Run Kubernetes. Run good systems. Stop being sold on second, third rung systems. Believe in yourselves. Don't exclude yourself, be afraid. You are not saving yourselves any hardship by choosing lesser technology. You can run K3S in <20 minutes, and you can start loading amazing manifests & Charts seconds after. This blog write up shows that. IT MAKES PEOPLE AFRAID to think how democratic technology could be. Please allow yourself a moment of un-doubt where you consider, maybe, this has amazing value for the home, that it's already possibly incredibly robust, please consider that applying some manifests might be super easy. Please consider that blog posts are the canonical way to share work, before Kubernetes, but now I can link you to a repo full of people sharing manifests & charts & works, that stand a decent chance of running on any cloud or at home. There's a lot of sophisticated under-the-hood boons to running Kubernetes too, but as for what the home-user gains: it's amazing. It's easy to understand, eventually, and shared. Skills learned building one thing in Kubernetes parlay much better into doing other Kubernetes tasks, related or not so much. Kubernauts are growing & learning & exploring, in a far more communal, shared operational way than what loose daemon-monkey-wrenching spread-out weirdness came before. It's not hard, it's not weird, it's not for enterprise. It runs out of the box, nicely. It's for people who want a good means to think about & control a wide variety of digital things. People who want a reasonably consistent underpinning to their technical operations. The alternative, what we had been doing, is having a lot of different things that each had their own means to be thought of & controlled; dis-unified, chaotic, piece-meal, inconsistent. Come try a better more unified way of computing. Come try utility computing. It's for people, all people. Many of us believe it serves us all better.