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Show HN: LitiHolo – a desktop 3D hologram printer that makes true holograms
- hologram-paul 6y agoHello again HN! 12 months ago I told you LitiHolo (I’m the founder) was working to create a 3D Hologram Printer, and asked for your input. Well, we built it! I've been involved with hologram printers all the way back to my grad school days (MIT Media Lab), and have built custom industrial versions for in-house commercial hologram work. But more recently LitiHolo has been focused on simple educational holograms kits. With this 3D Hologram Printer, we are kind of bringing the two together -- a simple hologram printer that makes the technology more affordable and accessible. These are true laser-recorded holograms, and we are starting small and simple to get things off the ground (think Makerbot for holograms). Would love your feedback on how we can continue to make hologram technology like this more accessible, as well as ideas for possible killer apps and use cases. Here's our previous HN post from 12 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616010 And full disclosure: we have launched a Kickstarter project for this, but would appreciate your input whether you back the project or not.
- ACAVJW4H 6y agoGood luck on your kickstarter. Hope you guys achieve your goals and ship this amazing tech! I tried searching for the term "hogel size" I assume it is somewhat equivalent to resolution. Can you expand on it and tell us what are the limiting factors around resolution and how it can be improved in the future? I am now curious how commercial sticker size holograms are printed.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! The hogel size is physically determined by things like the aperture size (in our case 1x1mm to start, with a stretch goal for 0.5x0.5mm), but also laser power, and just how long it takes to print each hogel and as a result the full hologram. Double the resolution is 4X the number of hogels.
- detritus 6y agoTwo suggestions for your site: • Knock off the first 30 seconds of your 'interior shots' video where the machine is presumably registering itself. I don't much care about that :) • Show the resultant printed film from the side on somewhere, so we can see how thin it is. From first glance, I got the impression the output was quite thick, whereas apparently it's only 16 microns (taken from your spec sheet). It might seem obvious to you, but it wasn't here and I think would be much more impressive. Neat tech, I've forwarded it to someone who might have use for it. Good luck!
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! The film plates are on 2mm thick glass, and the actual holographic recording layer is 16 microns, with a coversheet material over that.
- detritus 6y agoCan the layers be side-illuminated? If so, could these be layered, with some compensation for angle employed to account for depth, allowing you do fake RGB? ed - eg. each 16 micron sheet is side-illuminated with a specific colour, and then three or more holographic sheets are embedded in between the glass plate and cover?
- hologram-paul 6y agoOur LitiHolo hologram film is full-color sensitive, and the finished holograms are transparent, so layer is possible. We've started with a printer that is single-color initially to get this off the ground, but eventually we would like to have a full-color version of the printer in the future with RGB recording directly in one layer.
- ALittleLight 6y agoI agree with the feedback of having a picture better capture the thickness of the holograph plate (or whole assembly, whatever that's called). From the Buzz Lightyear picture I got the impression that it would be something like a thick picture frame, but that doesn't match the 2mm description. Would it be possible to use these as badge photos? I feel like it would be pretty cool to have a hologram picture on your badge.
- toast0 6y agoI know I don't have the patience/dexterity/not knocking the table over to use the hologram kits, and the printer is not in my budget, but I would love to see some of the finished (developed?) holograms. You might consider selling some of those?
- hologram-paul 6y agoGood idea! And I'm also expecting that some of the people who do get the 3D Hologram Printer will be selling holograms of their 3D holograms as art, portraits, etc.
- flir 6y agoThis is a transmission hologram, not a reflection hologram, right?
- hologram-paul 6y agoThese are reflection holograms. Also sometimes called white-light holograms because they can be viewed with a regular spot light, sunlight, or even a smartphone flashlight.
- flir 6y agoThat's cool. You should make that clear on the website, I definitely got the impression from the photos that they were in a frame.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! Will see how to highlight that better.
- yummypaint 6y agoI remember once seeing a hologram of a microscope where if you put your eye in the right spot you could see the item under magnification. Would something like that be possible with this system? Another thing that comes to mind is pairing this with some kind of computational holographic camera or something using those awesome new imaging TOF range sensors. Being able to make semi-instant holographic polaroids would probably capture people's imaginations.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThe microscope hologram is a cool one! Could definitely do something like that with our 3D Hologram Printer. One of the other very memorable holograms out there is the Kiss, which is also possible (see our Kiss demo hologram). I think holographic cameras would certainly be something that would be in the future for us. Glad to see you are already looking there!
- EvanAnderson 6y agoThe (sadly closed) Museum of Holography in Chicago had a similar hologram with a telescope you could "look through". I saw it once nearly 20 years ago, but the memory is burned into my brain. I would love to see it again, if only just to have that strange feeling of my perception being twisted again.
- pontifier 6y agoDefinitely a formational memory for me as well. There was a hologram gallery in a mall in Orem, Utah in the early 90's. I spent hours in there, but could never afford to buy one. I wish these were more available. I did manage to buy one about 10 years ago, but sadly it was lost in a move. I really need to acquire a bunch for the science museum I'm going to open. Will probably need a bunch of kits as well. This is the sort of thing that can change someone's life as a child. There's no replacement for that sense of wonder.
- hologram-paul 6y agoI agree that holograms have a way of grabbing kids' imaginations! Perhaps you could get a 3D Hologram Printer as well and make your own hologram exhibit for the science museum. So the next generation of kids can get hooked.
- primitivesuave 6y agoThis is a super cool project and I will definitely be buying one. However, I've been burned too many times on Kickstarter hardware projects (most spectacular loss was the Lily Camera) - nowadays I just pay the premium for a guaranteed shipping date. Some companies like Glowforge actually handled multiple delivery delays quite well, and raised venture capital so they wouldn't have to touch Kickstarter funds for overhead costs. Excited to follow your project and eventually have one sitting in my workshop!
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! We really do want to do this the right way, and grow the hologram community long term. Let me know if you know anyone at Glowforge that could be a guide through the process. Always good to be able to bounce things off someone who's been there.
- JohnHaugeland 6y agonever got an answer back when i contacted you a year ago to see if this could be used for casting holograms into chocolate
- hologram-paul 6y agoSorry about that, it has been a crazy year, and things have fallen through the cracks occasionally. The holograms with our film do not form surface relief patterns, and would not work for the "press the hologram into chocolate" idea. However, existing embossed holograms do have the surface relief and can be used for this.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tmikaeld 6y agoWow, it's a long time since I saw a site without SSL. Probably want to add that, not only for avoiding the red key at the top but for performance reasons.
- hologram-paul 6y agoRoger that! Will get on that, and thanks for the heads up.
- larinzod 6y agoCool idea. But I'm not seeing a practical application outside of the "hey this is cool!" factor.
- tmikaeld 6y agoThere's nothing wrong with vanity items, like any picture on the wall.
- hologram-paul 6y agoI definitely want holograms of my kids! (part of why I wanted to build this all along)
- hologram-paul 6y agoI have often used the comparison to early personal computers. The things were mainly switched and lights, but there was potential for where it could go. I heard that even early Apple people would say "A computer in every household", and people would ask, "What would I do with a computer?" and their best answer was "It's a great way to store and file your recipes."
- Grustaf 6y agoI love holograms, always found it extremely fascinating, but this is not really an argument. Anything _could_ sort of become the next personal computer, the question is why you think specifically holograms are useful?
- hologram-paul 6y agoI feel like anywhere you see a flat 2D image could be a 3D hologram eventually. And holograms give the "whole message", so more information, better information, clearer information. That's the potential. So portraits, some day hologram cameras, CAD output, advertising, and yes eventually hologram television/displays. But we are starting with something more simple, and not trying to promise everything to everyone. That does mean looking for initial use cases that will take off early.
- KlinkEastwood 6y agoThe part of me that is still a kid in the 90s that thought DBZ shirts were the epitome of style is thinking this is the coolest thing I've ever seen.
- hologram-paul 6y agoHolograms have a way of doing that to people! Thanks.
- danny-bee 6y agowhy is it so pixelated, I would think I could be done better, nice for amateurs or a teaching tool but for the one that really do holograms its not anything like what can be done at http://geola.com/product/ilumogram-applications/ http://geola.com/product/ilumogram-applications/, just my thought it will be just a novelty... words from a holographer
- hologram-paul 6y agoThis is our first step in providing the hologram machine itself to make your own holograms, rather than sending off to a service to make one for you. We think having this as a new tool, rather than just a service, will completely change access to hologram technology in the future, similar to what happened with 3D printing. I appreciate your input as a holographer, and we are hoping to help create a lot more holographers in the future who will have access to their own 3D Hologram Printer.
- camjohnson26 6y agoMaybe this is the wrong definition but I read “true hologram” to mean a 3D image made of light, this looks more like one of those images that used to be on the cover of Guinness World Records.
- mikepurvis 6y agoThe Nintendo 3DS seems like it's in this vein too— a lenticular display coupled to gyros and eye-tracking. Does these holograms work for more than one viewer at once?
- hologram-paul 6y agoWhere the 3DS is lenticular, these are real laser-formed holograms, and can be seen by multiple viewers without any headset or other gear. Right now view zone is 45 degrees.
- mikepurvis 6y agoHuh, very cool— is it totally passive then, once "printed"? It seems like you're encoding into each pixel what it would have to be for every possible view angle, and I'm having trouble getting my head around how this works.
- hologram-paul 6y agoHogels record the intensity and direction of the light (giving the ability to "look around" the hologram object). Yes, this hogel information is permanently exposed onto the hologram film.
- mekkkkkk 6y agoSo, the holograms are made of "pixels" that look different from different angles? If so, how much crosstalk is it, and how many discrete angles are we talking? Very cool!
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- DivisionSol 6y agoI'm on the verge of contributing to the Kickstarter, trying to get a sense of what I'm seeing: 1) http://www.litiholo.com/images/buzz-on-the-printer-crop-809x1000.jpg http://www.litiholo.com/images/buzz-on-the-printer-crop-809x... Wondering what the artifacting is on the left side of the hologram itself? Is this a problem with this specific hologram, or will all holograms have this artifacting? 2) Same image, but I'm not quite sure Buzz is centered in the middle of the ... work plate? Glass? Others are a bit more aligned to the edges, but are instead offset in various directions. For aesthetics, what would prevent a hologram from being perfectly centered and rotated to the plate? 3) They all have a little stray hologram pixel in the top right corner of each hologram, intentional? Fixable? Shortcoming of the technique? 4) A lot of the plates look a little smudged/finger-printy. Is it possible to clean the hologram plates/film after "printing" to have a clean shiny surface? 5) I don't see an example of an image that has been printed corner-to-corner? How much of this hologram film has been applied? Is it possible to make a full plate hologram? And/or trim the edges afterwards? (It looks like glass plates, so... probably hard for a layperson to cut?) 6) Open source firmware? Gcode? Toolchain? Hacker friendly? (Ctrl-f Firm, Open, or Code resulted in 0 results.) Just to end in a compliment sandwich, it's totally cool and would definitely have a place in budding maker's labs, and new niche stores! I could see the output being relatively popular on like... Etsy. Super affordable at $1,600 when stacked next to a 3D Printer, or Laser Cutter, etc. I love the idea and DO want one of my own... But trying to identify the shortcomings.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThe artifact you are seeing is a test alignment hogel on these early holograms. Do not expect that in the final system. Likewise, the demo holograms had different border areas, and some with fingerprints (definitely cleanable). The film plate will need some border area. Still working on where we will be with ease of hackability. Thanks for the compliments! Hope to see you as a backer and please recommend to the maker spaces you know.
- duckfang 6y agoWill it "require" the cloud or you otherwise retain remote control over it, like Cricut or Glowforge? If so, that is a complete dealbreaker for me. I'd assume that is also the case for others as well.
- camjohnson26 6y agoMaybe this is the wrong definition but I read “true hologram” to mean a 3D image made of light, this looks more like one of those images that used to be on the cover of Guinness World Records. Edit: I see OP is the founder and this is a smaller project. Looks really cool and sorry if that sounded negative! Just not what I expected from the title.
- hologram-paul 6y agoEach hogel is actually a real laser-encoded holograms. So trying to make the distinction between lenticulars, Pepper's Ghost, etc. that use the name "hologram", but are not. This hogel approach to recording the hologram in segments allows of capturing people, computer graphics, and much more than analog holograms that can only capture inanimate object. However our LitiHolo film can do analog holograms as well, if interested.
- filmor 6y ago"3d image made of light" is decidedly not what a real hologram is. Have a look at the Wikipedia page, real holograms are so much cooler!
- hologram-paul 6y agoI could not have said it better. Real holograms also still have a lot of development yet to come and improvements that can be made, whereas many other 3D techniques out there are limited quite significantly, or are quite old and don't have the head room to improve much.
- vorpalhex 6y agoI believe you are thinking about a light field display if you want the Star Wars esque living 3d projections of light.
- hologram-paul 6y agoI guess holograms could be considered a sub-set of light field displays, but not all light field displays are holograms.
- captainmuon 6y agoPretty neat. This seems like it actually exposes holograms the "hard" way, like you would do in a traditional setup (with lasers and beam splitters). A shortcut would be too directly print the very fine pattern that is on the holographic plate - basically a fourier transform of the image you want to encode. When I was in university we did a student's project on computer generated holograms and tried that - with a special ultra high dpi slide printer it didn't work, but strangely with a regular laser printer. The resolution was too coarse and the scale of the hologram was off, but it was really cool - if you reflect laser light from the plate, it looked as if the object was really there. I the appendix we speculated that it might be possible to clevery use GPUs ("3d accelerators" back then ;-)) to do the calculation in realtime and show it on a very high DPI screen. Some time I'd really like to revisit the project with today's technology.
- hologram-paul 6y agoActually, recording the laser light is easier currently than trying to compute out the full fringe pattern and print. In essence the light and interference pattern captured are doing real time Fourier computation at the speed of light. 3D computational advances certainly have helped, and we expect even more as our hologram printers get more advanced with time. Thanks.
- phkahler 6y agoI've been wondering if you could compute the interference pattern and then compute the view from any specific angle - possibly on a GPU. A sort of 2d way to save a 3d model. Also wondering how feasible it is to "reproject" a hologram from one plane to another - rendering multiple "objects" into one hologram/interference pattern.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThis is definitely possible and is the basis for some computational holography. And a holographic interference pattern is definitely a way to store a 3D image in a 2D plane, and I think a part of what won the Nobel prize in physics when holography was invented.
- tinus_hn 6y agoWould be nice if this would become available as a reasonably priced service for a one off print
- hologram-paul 6y agoDefinitely might be part of where things could go! And I'm sure there will be people who get one of the 3D Hologram Printers for doing just that. Holograms-as-a-Service?
- ben_w 6y agoI certainly expect to use HaaS if such a service became available and affordable. One thing I’ve fantasised about for 15 years is a wall-scale full colour hologram of some environments — forests, lunar surface, a city skyline, or perhaps a different one for each wall. Of course, I’ll have to play with the small ones first, to get a feel for what the tech can and cannot do…
- hologram-paul 6y agoHaas! I like it. Tiling of the holograms (making smaller holograms that can be tiled to make a larger one) is something we've definitely thought about, and even contemplated for a Kickstarter stretch goal. Wall size holograms would be fun!
- dTal 6y agoWorth noting that this exists already, here and there; you can get full color, full parallax digital holograms from, at the very least, Geola [0] - though "reasonably priced" is a matter of opinion! Making it economical is pretty difficult - the issue is that "mastering" is an inherently time-consuming process; you're writing each hogel one at a time, each hogel is only a square millimeter or smaller, and you're printing at a few dozen hertz max. So each piece inherently eats up a lot of time on the machine, like 3d printing. Then factor in that the plates are boutique, and that rendering all that data is many hours of computer time, and you're possibly looking at least 3 figures for a single A4 plate. That's a tough sell for the consumer market, when the lighting requirements are so stringent (they can only be lit by a single point source, from a strictly defined angle, with no extraneous light sources). Source: I used to work for a startup that provided this service. We ran out of money. [0] https://geola.com/ https://geola.com/
- BeniBoy 6y agoWhat I think is missing from the demo is that we can only see "lateral" movement, which is the reason why many people here think this looks like a lenticular display. If that is a real hologram you should be able to change your viewpoint vertically as well right ? Super cool anyway !
- hologram-paul 6y agoYes, we currently have full-parallax as a stretch goal, so it is definitely in the works and one of the things that lets holograms go beyond just lenticular. Thanks!
- bluesign 6y agoI was curious on that too, but from animation there seems to vertical effect, just horizontal
- hologram-paul 6y agoFull-parallax is currently a stretch goal for our Kickstarter.
- nightowl_games 6y agoCool product. Offtopic: They say "MIT Media Lab" and for me it just triggers thoughts of Epstein and Aaron Schwartz. It's become a stain in the collective unconscious, much in a similar vein to many people's negative viewpoint of law enforcement. The lesson of our times is this: police your in-group before society does, because society will come down far harder.
- hologram-paul 6y agoI was there before any of that and was working under Steve Benton, who was kind of a demi-God in holography (inventor of the rainbow hologram on credit cards today). It was a special place because of the kind of work we were doing, and I hope that memory survives.
- anfractuosity 6y agoVery cool! While looking for more information on creating holograms I found this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU (from The Thought Emporium) on making holograms using the LitiHolo film, which looks really fun too, especially the RGB hologram.
- hologram-paul 6y agoYes, this is the same film we use for the printers as well. It is full-color sensitive, so you can see where this could go for the printers after we get the initial concept off the ground.
- jcims 6y agoAre there any 'industrial' applications for the printed holograms? I'm thinking of these as a type of metamaterial and wondering if this provides some type of novel filtering and/or polarizing capability that doesn't exist today. Also given how this is constructed it seems like it might be possible to create holographic geometries that aren't possible with the traditional method of creating them.
- Const-me 6y agoIt depends on resolution of the printer and other specs, but potentially, this might help with R&D in areas like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_metamaterial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_metamaterial
- hologram-paul 6y agoDefinitely could be part of R&D for novel holographic optical elements for VR and AR headsets, and even solar cells and how they more efficiently use light to create electricity.
- hologram-paul 6y agoOne of the big industrial applications is for Holographic Optical Elements (HOE). Holograms can direct light like a mirrors, color filters, or act as several optical lenses combined into one thin holographic version.
- TheRealSteel 6y agoThat's really interesting! I don't know anything about holograms, or about optics (I'm currently implementing code that takes advantage of OpenCV's camera calibration and don't even know some of the basics). But I've read recently that some companies are trying to make better cameras (for phones etc) by making a meta-lens -- a single, flat lens with a highly detailed surface that can do the job that currently requires multiple curved lenses. Do holograms have anything in common with surfaces like that? If HOEs can direct light like several optical lenses combined into one, with a reflective enough surface, could holograms theoretically be used as some type of reflective (rather than refractive) lens like that for a smartphone (etc) camera? Can they reflect all wavelengths of visible light like you would need? Is anyone doing work in this area now? There are even periscopic cameras in phones today - could we one day have a high quality camera in a slim device with one or two reflective lenses and no refractive element at all? What's the difference like between something like LitiHolo and a machine required to make an HOE? What are the main relevant spec measures? I'm not sure if holograms have some equivalent of resolution, or similar.
- btbuildem 6y agoOK, so it's not a true hologram -- you cannot rotate it in multiple different ways to see what's on the other side, how does it look from the bottom, etc. It's a sequence of frames encoded by viewing angles respective to the print surface. This printer lets you make your own lenticular cards, except they're smooth in texture. EDIT: thanks for expanding my understanding of what holograms are :)
- hologram-paul 6y agoNo, these are true-laser recorded holograms, capturing the interference pattern of the laser light. The current printer uses horizontal parallax only, but we do have full-parallax as a stretch goal for the Kickstarter.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago> OK, so it's not a true hologram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram disagrees. This appears to be using real laser holography.
- hologram-paul 6y agoAmen!
- berniemadoff69 6y agonot to be a raincloud, but isn't Disney basically the most intellectual-property-protective company on the planet? seems like using Buzz Lightyear in this demo is asking for trouble.
- zuhayeer 6y agoThis reminds me of the moving pictures on newspapers in Harry Potter
- hologram-paul 6y agoAnd famous wizard cards! Now maybe you can make your own.
- yummypaint 6y agoIm very impressed with the quality given the seeming lack of vibration mitigation. The only hologram I ever made involved working on a basement floor for stability and having to hold my breath and remain motionless during the exposure.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! Yes, because these are true laser-recorded holograms the fringe pattern is quite high frequency. But the design of the 3D Hologram Printer greatly minimizes the issues and you don't need separate vibration isolation equipment.
- zokier 6y agoHi, cool release! Now that the printer is out, are you considering bringing back the "analog" film kits that were demonstrated e.g. by The Thought Emporium here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU
- hologram-paul 6y agoThat is a possibility! We liked the hologram kits, but we needed something to take us to the next level with our hologram technology, and the 3D Hologram Printer is that step for us. The hologram film continues to be available, and will be the same film we use for the printer.
- kiddico 6y agoThis looks incredibly cool. Just make sure you don't pull a stunt like Cricut recently has and piss off your entire userbase ;P
- hologram-paul 6y agoDuly noted!
- handol 6y agoThis is a fascinating project. How do you actually generate a hogel? Are you positioning a reference surface? An SLM?
- hologram-paul 6y agoYes, SLM. We use an LCD which is then focused to the hogel aperture with the object beam, where it meets the reference beam at the film to record the hologram for that hogel.
- lokl 6y agoVery interesting, but the 1 mm hogel size is a bit disappointing. Do you think you can improve this? How much?
- hologram-paul 6y agoWe currently have a 0.5x0.5mm resolution as a Kickstarter stretch goal. Where things like lenticulars do have fundamental limits concerning depth vs resolution based on diffraction limits, holograms do not have similar constraints. Ultimately, there is no reason these holograms can't reach resolutions similar to print (and better). Following the 3D printing market examples, we chose to start simple and then build on that as we progress in the future.
- lokl 6y agoThanks for answering. I'm going to follow your progress and wish you success.
- hologram-paul 6y agoThanks! I appreciate the support.
- Ellipsis753 6y agoTangentially related, but does anyone have a trick to Google search for holograms without getting pages of lenticular/pepper's ghost items instead? I'd like to buy a couple of pre-made holograms just to get a feel for them, but can't find anywhere selling them?
- Cerium 6y agoAdd some detailed keywords. In this case "reflection hologram" is a good keyword and I see a bunch of reasonably priced items on Etsy.
- haecceity 6y agoHow are the holograms encoded on the glass?
- hologram-paul 6y agoThe hologram film is laminated onto the glass for stability. The film itself is photosensitive and records the peaks and valleys of the interference pattern of the laser light.
- unkulunkulu 6y agoI wonder if it’s possible to impress unrelated images on the hologram as opposed to a consistent view of a 3d object. Also, is it possible to print a large hologram lets say a human height?
- hologram-paul 6y agoDefinitely possible. Essentially, each hogel could contain unrelated information and almost serve as holographic data storage. Additionally, separate holograms could be tiled together to make a larger hologram as well. We even thought about having tiling as a stretch goal for the Kickstarter.
- pabs3 6y agoWhat will the business model of these printers be? The hardware or the ink?
- hologram-paul 6y agoRazors or blades? Our first approach is to make the hardware more accessible and affordable (a first for hologram technology like this). But hologram film is the primary consumable. Has been interesting to see ink now become a subscription service as well.
- danny-bee 6y agowhy is it so pixelated, I would think I could be done better, nice for amateurs or a teaching tool but for the one that really do holograms its not anything like what can be done at http://geola.com/product/ilumogram-applications/ http://geola.com/product/ilumogram-applications/, just my thought it will be just a novelty... words from a holographer
- hologram-paul 6y agoThis is our first step in providing the hologram machine itself to make your own holograms, rather than sending off to a service to make one for you. We think having this as a new tool, rather than just a service, will completely change access to hologram technology in the future, similar to what happened with 3D printing. I appreciate your input as a holographer, and we are hoping to help create a lot more holographers in the future who will have access to their own 3D Hologram Printer.