8 ms·

The clotting with AZ is very different and more serious than what the thrombosis associated with the pill - about half of those who get it die even with best me

by fab1an 6y ago

The clotting with AZ is very different and more serious than what the thrombosis associated with the pill - about half of those who get it die even with best medical care. It predominanctly affects folks who would have a miniscule risk of death by Covid19, so this absolutely needs to be investigated.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
So why not prescribe aspirin until say a month after the second dose.
- AnthonBerg 6y ago
  Because aspirin has no meaningful impact on as severe an autoimmune platelet implosion as is described in these cases.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    Ah so its not just thickening of the blood then fair enough.
    - jiofih 6y ago
      If only medicine was logical like that. Not a cake recipe.
  - raducu 6y ago
    Are the clots any different than the ones caused by COVID-19 itself? Do we know for sure it's just the AZ vaccine and not the body's reaction to the spike protein(that is, other vaccines should face the same issue).
tyfon 6y ago
I saw the description by the doctor who treated the person who died here in Norway. He called it a "catastrophe in the brain" [1] and the life just could not be saved. It sounds really nasty. Blood clots + low blood plate count at the same time. [1] https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-helsearbeider-dode-_-undersoker-om-det-er-sammenheng-med-vaksinen-1.15418283 https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-helsearbeider-dode-_-unders...
- iso1631 6y ago
  A few weeks after my dad had a covid vaccine he had several seizures, which have continued to happen. On top of that, nearly 3 weeks into hospital and he caught covid. At least the vaccine worked and that's mostly sorted. MRI says he has suffered catastrophic brain damage and is about to be released for palative care for the last Now importantly - I don't know which vaccine he had (and I'm certainly not going to bother my mother over that at the moment) - He's suffered from seizures for the last few years, although those normally follow infections and high temperatures But it's disquieting
  - julianlam 6y ago
    I'm sorry to hear about your father's suffering. However I feel it's important for you to sound an alarm to the relevant doctors and/or public health units if you feel there's a link between his seizures and the vaccine. Whether or not it was the AZ vaccine or not..
    - iso1631 6y ago
      They know he had the vaccine and they know his medical history far more than I do - I'm not a medical expert, they are.
      - carlmr 6y ago
        But are they thinking about it right now? Maybe asking them about it would trigger a response.
  - inpdx 6y ago
    That's awful. I'm sorry for you and your family. "He's suffered from seizures for the last few years, although those normally follow infections and high temperatures" A vaccine will certainly cause the body to fight the perceived infection, including with high temperatures for some people. It's possible given his history those vaccine side effects should have been considered?
- raducu 6y ago
eastendguy 6y ago
Yep, this^ is the point. It is amazing that this key point is missed in so many discussions. Now.. maybe it is still worth the risk for a young 20 year old female, but I am not so sure - especially since we luckily have other vaccines that do not show this risk.
- Retric 6y ago
  There are safer vaccines so there is little point in risking this one. That said, it depends on how many future infections people that age face. If this vaccine is causing at most 4 deaths per million people* vs 648 recorded US covid deaths 15-24 out of a population of 43.5 million. 4 * 43.5 = ~174 < 648. So, it would have been noticeably safer for a random 20 year old American to have taken it Jan 2020 than risk covid. https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/topics/Demographics/Age/Population-aged-15-24-years https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/topics/Dem... So if the total future infections are say 1/4 the total infections up to this point then their roughly equivalent risks. Tipping one way or the other based on actual number of infections. * It’s rare enough that actual risks aren’t clear, but assuming the vaccine is the cause we can assume the risks are at or below that level.
- tim333 6y ago
  Well it's certainly worth doing risk reward calculations but so far they seem pretty clearly in favour of taking the vaccine.
  - jobigoud 6y ago
    If you assume you are 100% getting the virus maybe. But if you take a lot of precautions, work from home, don't get out unless necessary, wear a mask... it's not clear at all.
    - tim333 6y ago
      I guess if you are very low risk. I figure as a guestimate - people killed by vaccines - prob less that 1 a day. People killed by covid - about 7000 a day. So covid looks worse. Not a sophisticated analysis although the regulators do do those.

by fab1an 6y ago

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

So why not prescribe aspirin until say a month after the second dose.

AnthonBerg 6y ago
Because aspirin has no meaningful impact on as severe an autoimmune platelet implosion as is described in these cases.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  Ah so its not just thickening of the blood then fair enough.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    If only medicine was logical like that. Not a cake recipe.
- raducu 6y ago
  Are the clots any different than the ones caused by COVID-19 itself? Do we know for sure it's just the AZ vaccine and not the body's reaction to the spike protein(that is, other vaccines should face the same issue).

tyfon 6y ago

I saw the description by the doctor who treated the person who died here in Norway. He called it a "catastrophe in the brain" [1] and the life just could not be saved. It sounds really nasty. Blood clots + low blood plate count at the same time. [1] https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-helsearbeider-dode-_-undersoker-om-det-er-sammenheng-med-vaksinen-1.15418283 https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-helsearbeider-dode-_-unders...

iso1631 6y ago
A few weeks after my dad had a covid vaccine he had several seizures, which have continued to happen. On top of that, nearly 3 weeks into hospital and he caught covid. At least the vaccine worked and that's mostly sorted. MRI says he has suffered catastrophic brain damage and is about to be released for palative care for the last Now importantly - I don't know which vaccine he had (and I'm certainly not going to bother my mother over that at the moment) - He's suffered from seizures for the last few years, although those normally follow infections and high temperatures But it's disquieting
- julianlam 6y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about your father's suffering. However I feel it's important for you to sound an alarm to the relevant doctors and/or public health units if you feel there's a link between his seizures and the vaccine. Whether or not it was the AZ vaccine or not..
  - iso1631 6y ago
    They know he had the vaccine and they know his medical history far more than I do - I'm not a medical expert, they are.
    - carlmr 6y ago
      But are they thinking about it right now? Maybe asking them about it would trigger a response.
- inpdx 6y ago
  That's awful. I'm sorry for you and your family. "He's suffered from seizures for the last few years, although those normally follow infections and high temperatures" A vaccine will certainly cause the body to fight the perceived infection, including with high temperatures for some people. It's possible given his history those vaccine side effects should have been considered?
raducu 6y ago

eastendguy 6y ago

Yep, this^ is the point. It is amazing that this key point is missed in so many discussions. Now.. maybe it is still worth the risk for a young 20 year old female, but I am not so sure - especially since we luckily have other vaccines that do not show this risk.

Retric 6y ago
There are safer vaccines so there is little point in risking this one. That said, it depends on how many future infections people that age face. If this vaccine is causing at most 4 deaths per million people* vs 648 recorded US covid deaths 15-24 out of a population of 43.5 million. 4 * 43.5 = ~174 < 648. So, it would have been noticeably safer for a random 20 year old American to have taken it Jan 2020 than risk covid. https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/topics/Demographics/Age/Population-aged-15-24-years https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/topics/Dem... So if the total future infections are say 1/4 the total infections up to this point then their roughly equivalent risks. Tipping one way or the other based on actual number of infections. * It’s rare enough that actual risks aren’t clear, but assuming the vaccine is the cause we can assume the risks are at or below that level.
tim333 6y ago
Well it's certainly worth doing risk reward calculations but so far they seem pretty clearly in favour of taking the vaccine.
- jobigoud 6y ago
  If you assume you are 100% getting the virus maybe. But if you take a lot of precautions, work from home, don't get out unless necessary, wear a mask... it's not clear at all.
  - tim333 6y ago
    I guess if you are very low risk. I figure as a guestimate - people killed by vaccines - prob less that 1 a day. People killed by covid - about 7000 a day. So covid looks worse. Not a sophisticated analysis although the regulators do do those.