8 ms·

Double bongcloud: why grandmasters are playing the worst move in chess

142 points by bloat 6y ago

mr-wendel 6y ago
TL;DR: for "lolz". Actually, it's not that long and a light-hearted read. It is nice to see a bit of humor inserted into what is only a game.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  more accurate would be: None of the players had anything to win as both qualified already. So in order to hide their preparation they both played a wacky opening and straight into 3 fold repetition draw. And both had a bit of laugh about it.
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    ... while also being pretty media savvy and calling a ton of attention to their sport, which is a pretty smart move.
  - retzkek 6y ago
    Is there any particular reason for the repetition draw instead of just offering a draw?
    - jabroni_salad 6y ago
      That's boring, and the current top players are looking to have some fun. Chess has become something of a spectator sport on twitch.tv over the past year, and both the players in this article have been at the forefront of that movement. Every time someone trots out a bongcloud, chat goes absolutely bonkers. Using it in an actual tournament only elevates it further.
    - icen 6y ago
      Often in tournament chess you cannot offer a draw for the first 10 moves. However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw. The idea is to try and provoke games happening, even if the players come to the table wanting a draw (someone can still botch their opening!). Ultimately though, if GMs want a draw, they'll get it.
      - irishsultan 6y ago
        > However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw. This is somewhat pedantic, but 3-fold repetition is not automatically a draw (at least not according to FIDE rules). A 3-fold repetition allows either player to claim a draw, but it doesn't allow an arbiter to declare a draw if neither player claims it. Only a 5-fold repetition allows someone other than the players to declare a draw.
    - abnry 6y ago
      I think it is a bit of a plausible deniability thing. Offering a draw after the first move looks bad. There may even be rules against offering a draw before the first X moves. It also takes prolonged confirmation to agree to a draw via repetition.
    - psb 6y ago
      Many of these tournaments won't allow an offered draw before move ... 40 or something like that.
- ranguna 6y ago
  I completely agree with you. I see lots of people here trying to romanticise this into some spectacularly complex reasoning to make this a GM only move, but in reality I'm 99% sure they were just trolling. They were both laughing like hell when they were playing and they both had nothing to lose. Hikaru had been playing that move a lot recently for content in his media channels, Magnus being the cool guy that he is, played that move against him for lulz. In the end, they both had fun, the viewers had fun and new funny article and videos were created about this game. People: it's just for fun, not everything needs to be a classical serious thing all the time. Just sit back and take some hits from the good ol bongcloud.
hirundo 6y ago
It obviously wasn't in this game, but if a stronger player played this against me I'd interpret it as an insult to my relative skills, like offering to spot me a knight. Or calling me a patzer (true). And then I'd try to beat them anyway. If they win the insult is deserved, and maybe they should spot me a knight too in the next game.
- bvm 6y ago
  eh, i sometimes play it just to challenge myself and i'm truly terrible. it's fun to get new lines and give the oppo a laugh.
- mcguire 6y ago
  From the article: "Carlsen used it last October in the first game of a speed chess final win over the American grandmaster Wesley So, who confessed to its psychological effects in the aftermath: “It’s hard to forget the game when someone plays f3 and Kf2 and just crushes you. That’s so humiliating.”"
  - adamjb 6y ago
    Nit against tfa: 1. f3 ... 2. Kf2 is the Hammerschlag or the Fried Fox Attack, not the Bongcloud.
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  To me it's very clear Nakamura didn't want to lose to Carlsen's Bongcloud, so he responded in kind with one. It was a smart move on Hikaru's part, IMO.
icen 6y ago
As is so often the case in chess, a basic surveil of the theory can open up novelties in GM games. The seminal text 'Winning with the Bongcloud', is heartily recommended for anyone looking to understand this new opening. Here is a pdf link: http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1401479151063.pdf http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1401479151063.pdf
- macintux 6y ago
  That is indeed a gem, thanks. I liked the list of references. - The Really Complete Idiot's Guide to Chess by Wolff - How to Beat Your Dog at Chess by Chandler
- nogridbag 6y ago
  I don't know anything about chess, but I think this rule basically applies to any game played at a high level. I used to be a top 10 player in a 90's online game and I often used anonymous accounts (smurf accounts) for fun. One day as a joke I attempted a playing style that mimicked a complete novice (just moving the mouse with no keyboard input) and it was so effective it became a normal part of my repertoire. Eventually others took notice and it just became part of the game.
jchook 6y ago
While the name suggests you must be high off your bong to make this unconventional move, it may be named after Lenny Bongcloud[1]. 1. https://www.chess.com/member/lenny_bongcloud https://www.chess.com/member/lenny_bongcloud Edit: Here is a thread where Chess.com users apparently name the opening after him in 2008: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-life-and-times-of-lennybongcloud---and-ratings https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-life-and-times-...
- augusto-moura 6y ago
  The name has nothing to do with any player, the name is just a joke with being high
  - faeriechangling 6y ago
    I disagree entirely and completely believe the opening was named after "King" Lenny, certainly on chess.com it was named the "bongcloud" in his honor. He was one of the most famous and beloved personalities on the chess.com forums in its early days with a hippie avatar faithfully preaching the virtues of the bongcloud. People were inspired by his message of peace and good times on a forum dominated by overly serious players. The opening itself certainly predates Lenny Bongcloud but try to find mentions of the "Bongcloud" opening before around 2008.
  - snoopy86 6y ago
    Lenny Bongcloud was a legend on early chess.com. im pretty sure it is based on him. His elo was super low because he would just try to get his king to the other side of the board. (Why he used that opening). He used a picture of a hippy as his avatar.he would write in a way on his profile that had a cheech and chong vibe.
- QuercusMax 6y ago
  That seems unlikely, since the term has been around for decades.
  - jchook 6y ago
rozim 6y ago
When one GM does it, yes, amusing. But when both repeat to perform a Grandmaster draw they're kind of destroying the value to spectators, as in any other sport the fans would revolt if both teams were so willing to not put up a struggle. Some tournaments have had restrictions and incentives against this at least e.g. you won't get invited back if you have too many GM draws, or the game has to have a reasonable length and the arbiter won't allow such a draw, or they reset the pieces and make you start over if you draw too soon...
- weakfish 6y ago
  Well, Magnus was the host of the tournament IIRC...
- mam2 6y ago
  ok but in any other sports most is played over 1 or two matches. here it can be 8 / 10 matches against the SAME player to know the winner
  - tomcooks 6y ago
    And unlike other sports, in chess you're always at risk of losing your points even when you're a world famous GM
  - TylerE 6y ago
    Any other? NBA, NHL, and MLB all play 7 game playoff series.
- fairity 6y ago
  My understanding is that early draws were generally condoned in this specific case bc this tournament format was especially long-winded (15 games before playoffs started). And, this was the final round of games.
- kflzufkrbzi 6y ago
  Just create a format where every win is rewarded if you dont like (quick) draws. Why would a spectator care about a game that has nothing on the line?
cfcf14 6y ago
As silly as this is from a chess point of view, I really genuinely enjoyed watching Hikaru Nakamura's face as he sees the opening. Needed a good laugh!
andrewflnr 6y ago
Maybe it's just the faint phonetic similarity, but this strikes me as the chess analogue to Bogosort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort
rsj_hn 6y ago
This reminds me of Bobby Fischer's (rumored) KF2 blitz game against Nigel Short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9p2PrsKWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9p2PrsKWY

142 points by bloat 6y ago

TL;DR: for "lolz". Actually, it's not that long and a light-hearted read. It is nice to see a bit of humor inserted into what is only a game.

me_me_me 6y ago
more accurate would be: None of the players had anything to win as both qualified already. So in order to hide their preparation they both played a wacky opening and straight into 3 fold repetition draw. And both had a bit of laugh about it.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  ... while also being pretty media savvy and calling a ton of attention to their sport, which is a pretty smart move.
- retzkek 6y ago
  Is there any particular reason for the repetition draw instead of just offering a draw?
  - jabroni_salad 6y ago
    That's boring, and the current top players are looking to have some fun. Chess has become something of a spectator sport on twitch.tv over the past year, and both the players in this article have been at the forefront of that movement. Every time someone trots out a bongcloud, chat goes absolutely bonkers. Using it in an actual tournament only elevates it further.
  - icen 6y ago
    Often in tournament chess you cannot offer a draw for the first 10 moves. However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw. The idea is to try and provoke games happening, even if the players come to the table wanting a draw (someone can still botch their opening!). Ultimately though, if GMs want a draw, they'll get it.
    - irishsultan 6y ago
      > However a 3-fold repetition is automatically a draw. This is somewhat pedantic, but 3-fold repetition is not automatically a draw (at least not according to FIDE rules). A 3-fold repetition allows either player to claim a draw, but it doesn't allow an arbiter to declare a draw if neither player claims it. Only a 5-fold repetition allows someone other than the players to declare a draw.
  - abnry 6y ago
    I think it is a bit of a plausible deniability thing. Offering a draw after the first move looks bad. There may even be rules against offering a draw before the first X moves. It also takes prolonged confirmation to agree to a draw via repetition.
  - psb 6y ago
    Many of these tournaments won't allow an offered draw before move ... 40 or something like that.
ranguna 6y ago
I completely agree with you. I see lots of people here trying to romanticise this into some spectacularly complex reasoning to make this a GM only move, but in reality I'm 99% sure they were just trolling. They were both laughing like hell when they were playing and they both had nothing to lose. Hikaru had been playing that move a lot recently for content in his media channels, Magnus being the cool guy that he is, played that move against him for lulz. In the end, they both had fun, the viewers had fun and new funny article and videos were created about this game. People: it's just for fun, not everything needs to be a classical serious thing all the time. Just sit back and take some hits from the good ol bongcloud.

hirundo 6y ago

It obviously wasn't in this game, but if a stronger player played this against me I'd interpret it as an insult to my relative skills, like offering to spot me a knight. Or calling me a patzer (true). And then I'd try to beat them anyway. If they win the insult is deserved, and maybe they should spot me a knight too in the next game.

bvm 6y ago
eh, i sometimes play it just to challenge myself and i'm truly terrible. it's fun to get new lines and give the oppo a laugh.
mcguire 6y ago
From the article: "Carlsen used it last October in the first game of a speed chess final win over the American grandmaster Wesley So, who confessed to its psychological effects in the aftermath: “It’s hard to forget the game when someone plays f3 and Kf2 and just crushes you. That’s so humiliating.”"
- adamjb 6y ago
  Nit against tfa: 1. f3 ... 2. Kf2 is the Hammerschlag or the Fried Fox Attack, not the Bongcloud.
TameAntelope 6y ago
To me it's very clear Nakamura didn't want to lose to Carlsen's Bongcloud, so he responded in kind with one. It was a smart move on Hikaru's part, IMO.

icen 6y ago

As is so often the case in chess, a basic surveil of the theory can open up novelties in GM games. The seminal text 'Winning with the Bongcloud', is heartily recommended for anyone looking to understand this new opening. Here is a pdf link: http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1401479151063.pdf http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1401479151063.pdf

macintux 6y ago
That is indeed a gem, thanks. I liked the list of references. - The Really Complete Idiot's Guide to Chess by Wolff - How to Beat Your Dog at Chess by Chandler
nogridbag 6y ago
I don't know anything about chess, but I think this rule basically applies to any game played at a high level. I used to be a top 10 player in a 90's online game and I often used anonymous accounts (smurf accounts) for fun. One day as a joke I attempted a playing style that mimicked a complete novice (just moving the mouse with no keyboard input) and it was so effective it became a normal part of my repertoire. Eventually others took notice and it just became part of the game.

jchook 6y ago

While the name suggests you must be high off your bong to make this unconventional move, it may be named after Lenny Bongcloud[1]. 1. https://www.chess.com/member/lenny_bongcloud https://www.chess.com/member/lenny_bongcloud Edit: Here is a thread where Chess.com users apparently name the opening after him in 2008: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-life-and-times-of-lennybongcloud---and-ratings https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/the-life-and-times-...

augusto-moura 6y ago
The name has nothing to do with any player, the name is just a joke with being high
- faeriechangling 6y ago
  I disagree entirely and completely believe the opening was named after "King" Lenny, certainly on chess.com it was named the "bongcloud" in his honor. He was one of the most famous and beloved personalities on the chess.com forums in its early days with a hippie avatar faithfully preaching the virtues of the bongcloud. People were inspired by his message of peace and good times on a forum dominated by overly serious players. The opening itself certainly predates Lenny Bongcloud but try to find mentions of the "Bongcloud" opening before around 2008.
- snoopy86 6y ago
  Lenny Bongcloud was a legend on early chess.com. im pretty sure it is based on him. His elo was super low because he would just try to get his king to the other side of the board. (Why he used that opening). He used a picture of a hippy as his avatar.he would write in a way on his profile that had a cheech and chong vibe.
QuercusMax 6y ago
That seems unlikely, since the term has been around for decades.
- jchook 6y ago

rozim 6y ago

When one GM does it, yes, amusing. But when both repeat to perform a Grandmaster draw they're kind of destroying the value to spectators, as in any other sport the fans would revolt if both teams were so willing to not put up a struggle. Some tournaments have had restrictions and incentives against this at least e.g. you won't get invited back if you have too many GM draws, or the game has to have a reasonable length and the arbiter won't allow such a draw, or they reset the pieces and make you start over if you draw too soon...

weakfish 6y ago
Well, Magnus was the host of the tournament IIRC...
mam2 6y ago
ok but in any other sports most is played over 1 or two matches. here it can be 8 / 10 matches against the SAME player to know the winner
- tomcooks 6y ago
  And unlike other sports, in chess you're always at risk of losing your points even when you're a world famous GM
- TylerE 6y ago
  Any other? NBA, NHL, and MLB all play 7 game playoff series.
fairity 6y ago
My understanding is that early draws were generally condoned in this specific case bc this tournament format was especially long-winded (15 games before playoffs started). And, this was the final round of games.
kflzufkrbzi 6y ago
Just create a format where every win is rewarded if you dont like (quick) draws. Why would a spectator care about a game that has nothing on the line?

cfcf14 6y ago

As silly as this is from a chess point of view, I really genuinely enjoyed watching Hikaru Nakamura's face as he sees the opening. Needed a good laugh!

andrewflnr 6y ago

Maybe it's just the faint phonetic similarity, but this strikes me as the chess analogue to Bogosort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort

rsj_hn 6y ago

This reminds me of Bobby Fischer's (rumored) KF2 blitz game against Nigel Short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9p2PrsKWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9p2PrsKWY