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Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then you

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted after the act, the act is not safe. So abstinence is the only answer. And really, this shift towards abstinence is an appropriate social response.

chosenbreed37 6y ago
Perhaps the surveillance state might save the day. If the sequence of interactions is recorded a jury could review it and decide if any consent was given or given and subsequently withdrawn at any point :-)
afarrell 6y ago
Abstinence is the only answer _with an ironclad guarantee_. Fundamentally, sex requires trust and analog communication over a connection either physical or verbal.
- eru 6y ago
  Nope, you can still be falsely accused of almost anything.
  - afarrell 6y ago
    True. So I advise not having sex with someone if you do not trust their ethics or emotional maturity.
    - eru 6y ago
      No, I meant even not having sex (abstinence) doesn't 100% protect against accusations. Of course, in practice people deal with certainly below absolute. But once you admit that, the argument for absolute abstinence loses some of its punch.
viraptor 6y ago
"Change their mind" was never about changing mind afterwards. It's about "I don't like what you're doing, you should stop now" situation even if you were happy up to that point. You misunderstood the idea.
- oilbagz 6y ago
  Or perhaps it is you who doesn't understand the word 'abstain'. If your partner changes mind mid-act, of course you stop - that is abstaining from further activity. The point is, this is precisely the kind of confusion to avoid by maintaining abstinence as your primary mindset. It is the only way to be sure: abstain at all costs, even if you were given consent, because that consent is not immutable.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    No, I understand abstain and don't care about it in this context. I'm speaking out against the "change their mind after the fact" idea which gets brought up way too often as a possibility. It's disrespectful when discussing consent. You responded to a message which mentioned changing one's mind in terms of continuous consent, not false rape accusations. These are different things. If you want to talk about false rape accusations, don't call it "change of mind".
    - oilbagz 6y ago
      "Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no" dilemma .. just say no to casual, irresponsible sex - in the first place. It is only way to be sure you won't get accused of assault, and even then, if you're not checking for continued consent every few milliseconds while engaged in the act, you're probably having very, very dangerous sex ... so just don't bother.
rebuilder 6y ago
Who's talking about after the fact? You can consent to sex, then change your mind in the course of things. Maybe you just stop wanting to have sex, maybe your partner starts going into territory you're uncomfortable with, doesn't really matter. An app where you give consent beforehand can't handle real life.
nikanj 6y ago
False accusations work just fine despite your abstinence. If the other person is lying about consent, what's stopping them from lying about the sex too?
- oilbagz 6y ago
  We have legal tools for this already: Effective evidence-gathering by the investigating authority.
  - kolinko 6y ago
    There are voices on far (I hope) left that want to abandon evidence gathering and presumption of innocence in this case. I’ve seen some people post things like this on Facebook and not realise how crazy it is.

chosenbreed37 6y ago

Perhaps the surveillance state might save the day. If the sequence of interactions is recorded a jury could review it and decide if any consent was given or given and subsequently withdrawn at any point :-)

afarrell 6y ago

Abstinence is the only answer _with an ironclad guarantee_. Fundamentally, sex requires trust and analog communication over a connection either physical or verbal.

eru 6y ago
Nope, you can still be falsely accused of almost anything.
- afarrell 6y ago
  True. So I advise not having sex with someone if you do not trust their ethics or emotional maturity.
  - eru 6y ago
    No, I meant even not having sex (abstinence) doesn't 100% protect against accusations. Of course, in practice people deal with certainly below absolute. But once you admit that, the argument for absolute abstinence loses some of its punch.

viraptor 6y ago

"Change their mind" was never about changing mind afterwards. It's about "I don't like what you're doing, you should stop now" situation even if you were happy up to that point. You misunderstood the idea.

oilbagz 6y ago
Or perhaps it is you who doesn't understand the word 'abstain'. If your partner changes mind mid-act, of course you stop - that is abstaining from further activity. The point is, this is precisely the kind of confusion to avoid by maintaining abstinence as your primary mindset. It is the only way to be sure: abstain at all costs, even if you were given consent, because that consent is not immutable.
- viraptor 6y ago
  No, I understand abstain and don't care about it in this context. I'm speaking out against the "change their mind after the fact" idea which gets brought up way too often as a possibility. It's disrespectful when discussing consent. You responded to a message which mentioned changing one's mind in terms of continuous consent, not false rape accusations. These are different things. If you want to talk about false rape accusations, don't call it "change of mind".
  - oilbagz 6y ago
    "Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no" dilemma .. just say no to casual, irresponsible sex - in the first place. It is only way to be sure you won't get accused of assault, and even then, if you're not checking for continued consent every few milliseconds while engaged in the act, you're probably having very, very dangerous sex ... so just don't bother.

rebuilder 6y ago

Who's talking about after the fact? You can consent to sex, then change your mind in the course of things. Maybe you just stop wanting to have sex, maybe your partner starts going into territory you're uncomfortable with, doesn't really matter. An app where you give consent beforehand can't handle real life.

nikanj 6y ago

False accusations work just fine despite your abstinence. If the other person is lying about consent, what's stopping them from lying about the sex too?

oilbagz 6y ago
We have legal tools for this already: Effective evidence-gathering by the investigating authority.
- kolinko 6y ago
  There are voices on far (I hope) left that want to abandon evidence gathering and presumption of innocence in this case. I’ve seen some people post things like this on Facebook and not realise how crazy it is.