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Bitcoin disrupts central bank, not payment networks. Lightning [1] as layer 2 on top of Bitcoin adheres to trustless and p2p ideals, and is actually the competi

Bitcoin disrupts central bank, not payment networks. Lightning [1] as layer 2 on top of Bitcoin adheres to trustless and p2p ideals, and is actually the competition for Visa. [1]: https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ Edit: added link

zionic 6y ago
Lightning, technically speaking, is garbage. 10k transactions per second ETH2 layer 1 + zk roll-ups providing throughout multiplication threatens VISA.
- pshc 6y ago
  Sorry, 10k tx/sec on sharded ETH2 sounds really high to me, is that really the goal or a typo?
  - DennisP 6y ago
    Zkrollups plus sharding will do more than that, without security or usability compromises. Rollups can handle a couple thousand tx/sec on Ethereum today and data sharding increases that by 23X initially. https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/05/rollup.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/05/rollup.html
- rawtxapp 6y ago
  > Lightning, technically speaking, is garbage. Do you care to elaborate?
- kajumix 6y ago
  I will cheer for the success of ETH2 as well. The reason I like Lightning better is because the engineer in me wants to freeze the base layer and do the experimental layers in isolation. Internet infra is all layered for good reason.
  - lupire 6y ago
    The OSI layering model of internet infra is largely a myth, a simplification for students. It's similar to C is called "portable assembly" despite compilers being far more complex in practice.
    - quesera 6y ago
      OSI layers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 are very real. Roughly, e.g.: 1:Fiber, 2:Ethernet, 3:Routing, 4:TCP/IP, and 7:HTTP.
      - 3np 6y ago
        Isn’t IP commonly considered L3?
        quesera 6y ago
        Yep, and TCP is L4. So TCP/IP is L4/L3. The usual criticism of the OSI model is that there are grey areas and dependencies, where a lower layers bleed into higher layers (e.g. L2 switching which can work a lot like routing in modern hardware), and higher layers that are tightly bound to lower layers, making the distinctions unclear. The purist in me wants to agree, but I think the model is too useful to disregard casually. The value comes from the abstraction, and like Newtonian physics, it is a great model -- until it isn't.
      - lmm 6y ago
        Layers 2 and 3 are not real - most networks today merge their functions in the same devices. (In the OSI model switches are illegal, you can only have hubs and routers). 4 and 7 are ceasing to be real - HTTP2 is both a session protocol and an application protocol, and that's before we even get into things like DoH.
        quesera 6y ago
        You're not wrong, but you are speaking from the perspective of a single implementation stack, i.e. modern Ethernet and the modern Internet. The model is still solid, even if the most common implementation has melted a bit.
hggh 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4gNVme5a0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4gNVme5a0
JohnHaugeland 6y ago
> Bitcoin disrupts central bank no it doesn't
IncRnd 6y ago
> Bitcoin disrupts central bank, not payment networks. What central bank has been disrupted by Bitcoin?
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Who would put his assets in a bank controlled by chinese miners and where you can literally lose your money. Bitcoin is not a disruption. But blockchain is a useful tech. Bitcoin is just an implementation of blockchain.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  China is the disruption. China is where the big growth is happening. Just ask Charlie Munger.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    And which numbers of that growth do you trust? :) (just saying that you can't really trust their numbers, growing "big" or growing "normal". Who knows :) )
    - ketamine__ 6y ago
      I trust Munger knows what he is talking about even though mere mortals like myself don't have the same network.
nonameiguess 6y ago
I'm sorry but I just laughed like crazy reading this. The US Fed showering the wealthy with more cash than they know what to do with is the only reason Bitcoin continues to exist and anyone holds it. Bitcoin can't disrupt the Fed any more than house flippers in 2006 disrupted the mortgage underwriting industry. Bitcoin completely depends on the Fed. Holding it is a bet that the helicopter will never land. I guess that's a little unfair as I suppose Bitcoin can help disrupt the central banks of places like Venezuela, giving the elite an easier means of fleeing a collapsing country without losing their wealth. Sort of defeats the purpose of economic collapse if it no longer even serves as a great leveler, but oh well, I guess. As long as the rich can never lose.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Zelle disrupts central banks more than Bitcoin in Venezuela. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-11/zelle-has-turned-dollar-starved-venezuela-into-a-cashless-test-lab https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-11/zelle-has... "I lived in Venezuela. Almost no one uses crypto or cares about crypto. The fees to send bitcoin alone represent a sizeable chunk of money to most Venezuelans." https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/jsw96e/zelle_has_turned_dollarstarved_venezuela_into_a/gc2y9b2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/jsw96e/zelle_has...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - runako 6y ago
    It looks like a single BTC transaction currently costs >10% of the average monthly income in Venezuela!

zionic 6y ago

Lightning, technically speaking, is garbage. 10k transactions per second ETH2 layer 1 + zk roll-ups providing throughout multiplication threatens VISA.

pshc 6y ago
Sorry, 10k tx/sec on sharded ETH2 sounds really high to me, is that really the goal or a typo?
- DennisP 6y ago
  Zkrollups plus sharding will do more than that, without security or usability compromises. Rollups can handle a couple thousand tx/sec on Ethereum today and data sharding increases that by 23X initially. https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/05/rollup.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/05/rollup.html
rawtxapp 6y ago
> Lightning, technically speaking, is garbage. Do you care to elaborate?
kajumix 6y ago
I will cheer for the success of ETH2 as well. The reason I like Lightning better is because the engineer in me wants to freeze the base layer and do the experimental layers in isolation. Internet infra is all layered for good reason.
- lupire 6y ago
  The OSI layering model of internet infra is largely a myth, a simplification for students. It's similar to C is called "portable assembly" despite compilers being far more complex in practice.
  - quesera 6y ago
    OSI layers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 are very real. Roughly, e.g.: 1:Fiber, 2:Ethernet, 3:Routing, 4:TCP/IP, and 7:HTTP.
    - 3np 6y ago
      Isn’t IP commonly considered L3?
      - quesera 6y ago
        Yep, and TCP is L4. So TCP/IP is L4/L3. The usual criticism of the OSI model is that there are grey areas and dependencies, where a lower layers bleed into higher layers (e.g. L2 switching which can work a lot like routing in modern hardware), and higher layers that are tightly bound to lower layers, making the distinctions unclear. The purist in me wants to agree, but I think the model is too useful to disregard casually. The value comes from the abstraction, and like Newtonian physics, it is a great model -- until it isn't.
    - lmm 6y ago
      Layers 2 and 3 are not real - most networks today merge their functions in the same devices. (In the OSI model switches are illegal, you can only have hubs and routers). 4 and 7 are ceasing to be real - HTTP2 is both a session protocol and an application protocol, and that's before we even get into things like DoH.
      - quesera 6y ago
        You're not wrong, but you are speaking from the perspective of a single implementation stack, i.e. modern Ethernet and the modern Internet. The model is still solid, even if the most common implementation has melted a bit.

hggh 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4gNVme5a0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4gNVme5a0

JohnHaugeland 6y ago

> Bitcoin disrupts central bank no it doesn't

IncRnd 6y ago

> Bitcoin disrupts central bank, not payment networks. What central bank has been disrupted by Bitcoin?

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Who would put his assets in a bank controlled by chinese miners and where you can literally lose your money. Bitcoin is not a disruption. But blockchain is a useful tech. Bitcoin is just an implementation of blockchain.

ketamine__ 6y ago
China is the disruption. China is where the big growth is happening. Just ask Charlie Munger.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  And which numbers of that growth do you trust? :) (just saying that you can't really trust their numbers, growing "big" or growing "normal". Who knows :) )
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    I trust Munger knows what he is talking about even though mere mortals like myself don't have the same network.

nonameiguess 6y ago

I'm sorry but I just laughed like crazy reading this. The US Fed showering the wealthy with more cash than they know what to do with is the only reason Bitcoin continues to exist and anyone holds it. Bitcoin can't disrupt the Fed any more than house flippers in 2006 disrupted the mortgage underwriting industry. Bitcoin completely depends on the Fed. Holding it is a bet that the helicopter will never land. I guess that's a little unfair as I suppose Bitcoin can help disrupt the central banks of places like Venezuela, giving the elite an easier means of fleeing a collapsing country without losing their wealth. Sort of defeats the purpose of economic collapse if it no longer even serves as a great leveler, but oh well, I guess. As long as the rich can never lose.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Zelle disrupts central banks more than Bitcoin in Venezuela. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-11/zelle-has-turned-dollar-starved-venezuela-into-a-cashless-test-lab https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-11/zelle-has... "I lived in Venezuela. Almost no one uses crypto or cares about crypto. The fees to send bitcoin alone represent a sizeable chunk of money to most Venezuelans." https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/jsw96e/zelle_has_turned_dollarstarved_venezuela_into_a/gc2y9b2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/jsw96e/zelle_has...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- runako 6y ago
  It looks like a single BTC transaction currently costs >10% of the average monthly income in Venezuela!