4 ms·

"I guess mummy and daddy paying $20 mil for a new library to get me a seat at an ‘elite’ school is still meritocracy eh?" As someone who never even finished co

by rcurry 6y ago

"I guess mummy and daddy paying $20 mil for a new library to get me a seat at an ‘elite’ school is still meritocracy eh?" As someone who never even finished college, I think this is a pretty cheap shot. My former boss on Wall Street went to MIT and only got there because his father was a migrant strawberry picker who worked his ass off to get his kid a good education. My last boss was African American, and went to Harvard and MIT - also probably the best damned general manager I've ever worked for. Everyone has their own story, and most of the people I've met who have Ivy degrees are no different from anyone else I've worked with except they were more driven (or guided) as kids and put the time in that it took to get where they wanted to go. I don't begrudge them that for a second.

ironman1478 6y ago
Here is an interesting article with some statistics https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritocracys-miserable-winners/594760/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritoc... http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/papers/coll_mrc_paper.pdf http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/papers/coll_mrc_paper... Maybe not all of those people who are enrolled have donated and then got in, but wealth is directly correlated with getting into these schools, not pure skill. At this point getting into a university is just about memorization and going through the rehearsed motions. There are too many good applicants. The only differentiating factor is money at this point and wealth is required to learn how to do the motions to get in. Everything else is just a dice role. I also think its important to think about the age of the people you are talking about. If they were older, then it was generally easier to get into almost all universities assuming you had the money (which is a HUGE if). The acceptance rates at all these schools was significantly higher. Not to diminish their accomplishments (because they are tremendous accomplishments), but in the past it was in some ways more "fair" from a financial perspective (though probably unfair in all the other ways that things can be unfair).
- Zanneth 6y ago
  You can't discount the idea that wealthy people generally have shared values that are more conducive to successful careers for their children. Therefore it shouldn't be surprising that wealthy students are more likely to get accepted into prestigious universities irrespective of how much money they have. Having said that, there is no reason why a poor family can't also impart the same values to their children. It's just more difficult because they have to learn those values on their own, rather than being taught from a young age.
  - ironman1478 6y ago
    So, I was a part of a borderline poor family and somehow made it out into what is essentially an ivy but on the west coast (probably was a pity admission). Poor family's can have these values, however its simply the logistics and stressors. How do you take your kid(s) to a class outside of school hours to teach them how to memorize the answers to a test when you have multiple jobs, public transit sucks or non existent if you live in a place like florida (so your kid can't take themselves), and your kid is also probably ill equipped for that environment because your child's school is more of a day care and not a place to learn because we have given up on schools in the US. If you are a person of color, then its even worse because even getting into an OK school district can be extremely difficult due to Nimbyism which is a proxy for racism (and classism) basically. Its not values. Poor people and especially poor people of color are setup to fail and its shear force of will that gets you out. I also don't want to discount the effort that middle class+ kids put in. They put a lot too and I don't want to say they aren't deserving. But the playing field isn't level.

by rcurry 6y ago

ironman1478 6y ago

Here is an interesting article with some statistics https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritocracys-miserable-winners/594760/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritoc... http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/papers/coll_mrc_paper.pdf http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/papers/coll_mrc_paper... Maybe not all of those people who are enrolled have donated and then got in, but wealth is directly correlated with getting into these schools, not pure skill. At this point getting into a university is just about memorization and going through the rehearsed motions. There are too many good applicants. The only differentiating factor is money at this point and wealth is required to learn how to do the motions to get in. Everything else is just a dice role. I also think its important to think about the age of the people you are talking about. If they were older, then it was generally easier to get into almost all universities assuming you had the money (which is a HUGE if). The acceptance rates at all these schools was significantly higher. Not to diminish their accomplishments (because they are tremendous accomplishments), but in the past it was in some ways more "fair" from a financial perspective (though probably unfair in all the other ways that things can be unfair).

Zanneth 6y ago
You can't discount the idea that wealthy people generally have shared values that are more conducive to successful careers for their children. Therefore it shouldn't be surprising that wealthy students are more likely to get accepted into prestigious universities irrespective of how much money they have. Having said that, there is no reason why a poor family can't also impart the same values to their children. It's just more difficult because they have to learn those values on their own, rather than being taught from a young age.
- ironman1478 6y ago
  So, I was a part of a borderline poor family and somehow made it out into what is essentially an ivy but on the west coast (probably was a pity admission). Poor family's can have these values, however its simply the logistics and stressors. How do you take your kid(s) to a class outside of school hours to teach them how to memorize the answers to a test when you have multiple jobs, public transit sucks or non existent if you live in a place like florida (so your kid can't take themselves), and your kid is also probably ill equipped for that environment because your child's school is more of a day care and not a place to learn because we have given up on schools in the US. If you are a person of color, then its even worse because even getting into an OK school district can be extremely difficult due to Nimbyism which is a proxy for racism (and classism) basically. Its not values. Poor people and especially poor people of color are setup to fail and its shear force of will that gets you out. I also don't want to discount the effort that middle class+ kids put in. They put a lot too and I don't want to say they aren't deserving. But the playing field isn't level.