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> Poland, Please, don't. Putting PRL anywhere near Cambodia, North Korea, Cuba, or even Hungary is very, very wrong. We had no mass murders here. There were s

> Poland, Please, don't. Putting PRL anywhere near Cambodia, North Korea, Cuba, or even Hungary is very, very wrong. We had no mass murders here. There were some deaths during workers' protests. There was censorship, and political dissidents were put in prison, some others were denied employment. There was a lot of surveilance. And we had a martial law declared for a while in '81. On the other hand, millions of people were educated (even if Marxism-Leninism was a part of curriculum and some parts of history were erased (like mass-murder of Polish officers by NKVD near Katyn)), millions of people got a chance to work (as long as they didn't publicly criticize socialism or the party too much), to own an apartment; the children got to go to vacations by the sea or in the mountains. Millions of people were lifted from poverty. The pubic infrastructure (roads, trains, hospitals, schools, etc.) improved so much that comparison with the state before war would be a joke. Czechoslovakia and Hungary had Soviet tanks roll over their protests. That was bad. Nothing like that happened in Poland (arguably the '81 was done to avoid such an intervention). So, don't use Poland as an example of how horrible communism is. Because in Poland - it wasn't. Not to mention, even the official propaganda wasn't saying we lived under communism - it was called socialism, and was deemed a first stage before world-wide communist revolotution. Which somehow never materialized, and nobody cried because of that. EDITED to add: > I don’t believe these are coincidences or implementation issues These are not coincidences. This is what happens under authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. As I said already: it doesn't matter what ideology was used to rise to power, once the power is unchecked, it will be abused. There were decidedly anti-communist regimes in South America and parts of Europe and Middle East which murdered people left and right, too. You seem to want to see communism as bad, because people you call communist did something bad to you and your family. I'm sorry, but that's wrong way to look at it. Some people with psychopatic tendencies got to use an ideology (which they probably never understood, nor cared to understand) to seize power and abuse it. Also, I really didn't want to use this card, but maybe there was a reason (other than them being psychopats) for what they did? Maybe they hunted people who collaborated with Nazi forces during the war (you know there were quite a few, right?) Maybe they were afraid they'd be hanged on street lamps (like in Hungary) if they didn't put out the dissent quickly enough? History is not black and white. "Communism is bad and makes people do bad things" is very wrong way to look at it.

garaetjjte 6y ago
>We had no mass murders here. There were some deaths during workers' protests. At least 40 people were killed during martial law, and over 10000 interned. Dozens of people were murdered by security forces in the previous years too. Reducing that to "some deaths" just feels tone-deaf. >The public infrastructure (roads, trains, hospitals, schools, etc.) improved so much that comparison with the state before war would be a joke. It would be surprising if absolutely nothing improved for over 40 years. But in the end, economy and infrastructure was a joke when compared to Western block. When looking at it it's hard to classify infrastructure development during PRL as success, really. >(arguably the '81 was done to avoid such an intervention) This is widely disputed, and most people who promoted this view were themselves involved in introducing martial law, so... >History is not black and white. "Communism is bad and makes people do bad things" is very wrong way to look at it. It certainly isn't black and white, but whitewashing totalitarian regime because they didn't kill enough people to classify as mass killing isn't solution either.
- klibertp 6y ago
  > At least 40 people were killed during martial law, and over 10000 interned. Dozens of people were murdered by security forces in the previous years too. Reducing that to "some deaths" just feels tone-deaf. Look, the state killing off its people is always bad, yes. What's tone-deaf, though, is equaling dozens of deaths, or even hundreds of deaths, with this (China): > Estimates of the death toll in Cultural Revolution, including civilians and Red Guards, vary greatly, ranging from hundreds of thousands to 20 million. This (Ukraine/Soviet Union): > By the end of 1933, millions of people had starved to death or otherwise died unnaturally in the Soviet republics. Total population loss (including stillbirth) across the union is estimated at 6–7 million. This (Cambodia): > According to a 2001 academic source, the most widely accepted estimates of excess deaths under the Khmer Rouge range from 1.5 million to 2 million, although figures as low as 1 million and as high as 3 million have been cited; conventionally accepted estimates of executions range from 500,000 to 1 million, "a third to one half of excess mortality during the period". and so on, and on, and on. > This is widely disputed, Which is why I wrote "arguably". > whitewashing totalitarian regime because they didn't kill enough people to classify as mass killing isn't solution either I'm not whitewashing anything. I'm saying that, as far as authoritarian regimes this side of the Iron Courtain go, PRL was relatively peaceful, killed off relatively small amount of people, and - on the other hand - improved living conditions of a relatively large percentage of the population. As I said many times at this point: when the power goes unchecked, it will be abused. It was also true in the PRL. But there is a spectrum of how bad it gets, and on that spectrum Poland was possibly one of the easiests places to live in the whole Eastern Bloc. Ignoring this is not "being true to historical facts", it's just blatantly pushing an agenda.

garaetjjte 6y ago

>We had no mass murders here. There were some deaths during workers' protests. At least 40 people were killed during martial law, and over 10000 interned. Dozens of people were murdered by security forces in the previous years too. Reducing that to "some deaths" just feels tone-deaf. >The public infrastructure (roads, trains, hospitals, schools, etc.) improved so much that comparison with the state before war would be a joke. It would be surprising if absolutely nothing improved for over 40 years. But in the end, economy and infrastructure was a joke when compared to Western block. When looking at it it's hard to classify infrastructure development during PRL as success, really. >(arguably the '81 was done to avoid such an intervention) This is widely disputed, and most people who promoted this view were themselves involved in introducing martial law, so... >History is not black and white. "Communism is bad and makes people do bad things" is very wrong way to look at it. It certainly isn't black and white, but whitewashing totalitarian regime because they didn't kill enough people to classify as mass killing isn't solution either.

klibertp 6y ago
> At least 40 people were killed during martial law, and over 10000 interned. Dozens of people were murdered by security forces in the previous years too. Reducing that to "some deaths" just feels tone-deaf. Look, the state killing off its people is always bad, yes. What's tone-deaf, though, is equaling dozens of deaths, or even hundreds of deaths, with this (China): > Estimates of the death toll in Cultural Revolution, including civilians and Red Guards, vary greatly, ranging from hundreds of thousands to 20 million. This (Ukraine/Soviet Union): > By the end of 1933, millions of people had starved to death or otherwise died unnaturally in the Soviet republics. Total population loss (including stillbirth) across the union is estimated at 6–7 million. This (Cambodia): > According to a 2001 academic source, the most widely accepted estimates of excess deaths under the Khmer Rouge range from 1.5 million to 2 million, although figures as low as 1 million and as high as 3 million have been cited; conventionally accepted estimates of executions range from 500,000 to 1 million, "a third to one half of excess mortality during the period". and so on, and on, and on. > This is widely disputed, Which is why I wrote "arguably". > whitewashing totalitarian regime because they didn't kill enough people to classify as mass killing isn't solution either I'm not whitewashing anything. I'm saying that, as far as authoritarian regimes this side of the Iron Courtain go, PRL was relatively peaceful, killed off relatively small amount of people, and - on the other hand - improved living conditions of a relatively large percentage of the population. As I said many times at this point: when the power goes unchecked, it will be abused. It was also true in the PRL. But there is a spectrum of how bad it gets, and on that spectrum Poland was possibly one of the easiests places to live in the whole Eastern Bloc. Ignoring this is not "being true to historical facts", it's just blatantly pushing an agenda.