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It's true. Basically most people don't understand entropy. Both the scientific method and entropy are phenomenons arising from the assumption that probability i

It's true. Basically most people don't understand entropy. Both the scientific method and entropy are phenomenons arising from the assumption that probability is real. If you understand that entropy is merely a consequence of probability then you understand entropy. I think the thermodynamic law throws everyone off. Entropy is not the axiomatic law. The law is probability, and this same law also powers our science.

st_goliath 6y ago
> I think the thermodynamic law throws everyone off. Entropy is not the axiomatic law. The law is probability, Yes, and I think the other big plunder often committed is explaining entropy in thermodynamics as a measure for "disorderliness". You might get away with that if you want to explain diffusion processes to a class of high school students, but even then the idea quickly falls flat on it's face once they realize that in chemistry things crystalize out, often after giving off thermal energy. (Also, "disorderliness" is a fairly subjective concept)
- not2b 6y ago
  No, that doesn't follow: entropy can decrease provided that it is exothermic enough. For a spontaneous reaction to occur, the relevant quantity isn't the entropy, but the Gibbs free energy. So reactions that reduce entropy (because "things crystalize out") can take place if the enthalpy increases enough to compensate.
- neonological 6y ago
  A system of loaded dice is a good counter example to "disorder". 10 loaded Dice weighted to always roll 6 trends towards our definition of order because 6 is simply more likely to occur. In this case rolling 10 dice increases order but that order represents increasing entropy.
  - jkhdigital 6y ago
    I think a more suitable pair of common antonyms is “predictability” and “unpredictability”.
    - neonological 6y ago
      Some systems can be configured where such that only one possible outcome is possible. In that case your prediction rate would be 100%. So for example the loaded dice are programmed to always roll a 6. Thus the most predictable and ordered outcome (all 6s) is also the highest entropy state. Entropy simply says that over time the configuration of certain entities within a system will progress towards higher probability configurations. For most systems (like for example, non-loaded dice) the most probable outcome is a disordered state. But this is not the case for all systems. Take our solar system for example. The most probable outcome for the configurations of all particles orbiting our sun is to form perfect spheres (planets). This is the highest entropy state of the system. The system by itself naturally progresses towards spherical configurations that we can only describe as ordered. However, when people talk about entropy in terms of heat. Entropy is indeed in this case measuring disorder. But this is a very specific definition of entropy for one type of system and the more general definitions are the ones provided by information theory and statistical mechanics.
ravi-delia 6y ago
Of course, depending on which direction you feel like drawing the arrows, probability and entropy (thermodynamic) are caused by entropy (information). God seems to care very much about preventing cheating in computation, for no particular reason at all. Or, conversely, God cares very much about the universe having an arrow of time without any notable time-asymmetric properties, and had to make up all sorts of information patches to make that happen. In that case, probability flows downstream from thermodynamics.
- neonological 6y ago
  Information entropy is formally defined in terms of probability. Are you implying that some sort of inverse is possible and probability can de derived in terms of entropy? Could you write or cite what the formula would be in this case? It appears to me that the formula for entropy itself recursively suffers from rising entropy. Thus you cannot reverse it... You cannot derive individual probabilities of each state from just entropy. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory) (in terms of the mathematical formula from Wikipedia, by saying you can't reverse it, I am saying that no individual P(xi) can be determined when you are just given H(X) as an input) Thus because of the reasoning above, probability must be the axiomatic source of entropy. It makes sense intuitively. Entropy is the macro phenomenon arising from the micro phenomenon of probability. The law of numerically higher probability events being more likely to occur then numerically lower probability events when following the arrow of time is the more fundamental explanation of what's going on here. Entropy is simply a macro numerical summary of these probabilistic events happening in aggregate.
- lisper 6y ago
  You might find this interesting: http://blog.rongarret.info/2014/10/parallel-universes-and-arrow-of-time.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2014/10/parallel-universes-and-ar...

st_goliath 6y ago

> I think the thermodynamic law throws everyone off. Entropy is not the axiomatic law. The law is probability, Yes, and I think the other big plunder often committed is explaining entropy in thermodynamics as a measure for "disorderliness". You might get away with that if you want to explain diffusion processes to a class of high school students, but even then the idea quickly falls flat on it's face once they realize that in chemistry things crystalize out, often after giving off thermal energy. (Also, "disorderliness" is a fairly subjective concept)

not2b 6y ago
No, that doesn't follow: entropy can decrease provided that it is exothermic enough. For a spontaneous reaction to occur, the relevant quantity isn't the entropy, but the Gibbs free energy. So reactions that reduce entropy (because "things crystalize out") can take place if the enthalpy increases enough to compensate.
neonological 6y ago
A system of loaded dice is a good counter example to "disorder". 10 loaded Dice weighted to always roll 6 trends towards our definition of order because 6 is simply more likely to occur. In this case rolling 10 dice increases order but that order represents increasing entropy.
- jkhdigital 6y ago
  I think a more suitable pair of common antonyms is “predictability” and “unpredictability”.
  - neonological 6y ago
    Some systems can be configured where such that only one possible outcome is possible. In that case your prediction rate would be 100%. So for example the loaded dice are programmed to always roll a 6. Thus the most predictable and ordered outcome (all 6s) is also the highest entropy state. Entropy simply says that over time the configuration of certain entities within a system will progress towards higher probability configurations. For most systems (like for example, non-loaded dice) the most probable outcome is a disordered state. But this is not the case for all systems. Take our solar system for example. The most probable outcome for the configurations of all particles orbiting our sun is to form perfect spheres (planets). This is the highest entropy state of the system. The system by itself naturally progresses towards spherical configurations that we can only describe as ordered. However, when people talk about entropy in terms of heat. Entropy is indeed in this case measuring disorder. But this is a very specific definition of entropy for one type of system and the more general definitions are the ones provided by information theory and statistical mechanics.

ravi-delia 6y ago

Of course, depending on which direction you feel like drawing the arrows, probability and entropy (thermodynamic) are caused by entropy (information). God seems to care very much about preventing cheating in computation, for no particular reason at all. Or, conversely, God cares very much about the universe having an arrow of time without any notable time-asymmetric properties, and had to make up all sorts of information patches to make that happen. In that case, probability flows downstream from thermodynamics.

neonological 6y ago
Information entropy is formally defined in terms of probability. Are you implying that some sort of inverse is possible and probability can de derived in terms of entropy? Could you write or cite what the formula would be in this case? It appears to me that the formula for entropy itself recursively suffers from rising entropy. Thus you cannot reverse it... You cannot derive individual probabilities of each state from just entropy. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory) (in terms of the mathematical formula from Wikipedia, by saying you can't reverse it, I am saying that no individual P(xi) can be determined when you are just given H(X) as an input) Thus because of the reasoning above, probability must be the axiomatic source of entropy. It makes sense intuitively. Entropy is the macro phenomenon arising from the micro phenomenon of probability. The law of numerically higher probability events being more likely to occur then numerically lower probability events when following the arrow of time is the more fundamental explanation of what's going on here. Entropy is simply a macro numerical summary of these probabilistic events happening in aggregate.
lisper 6y ago
You might find this interesting: http://blog.rongarret.info/2014/10/parallel-universes-and-arrow-of-time.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2014/10/parallel-universes-and-ar...