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There's a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... in the See

There's a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... in the See also section of Communism article... EDIT: I see it's probably the same link you saw in Related topics, so it's mentioned twice on the page. Should it be mentioned in the text of the article? I don't know. There's similarly no mention of crussades on the Christianity page.

Const-me 6y ago
The “nazism” article has links to night of the long knives and holocaust in the very first section. The “communism” article links to the mass murders from the very last page, in an article about 10 pages long. Looking at the edit history of that article, I see the edits to change that are systematically reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communism&type=revision&diff=1010679793&oldid=1010665304 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communism&type=re...
- klibertp 6y ago
  Ok, I'm not going to defend that, you might be right that the great leap forward or the great famine should be mentioned. The only defense I can think of is that neither is central to the ideology of communism, while holocaust arguably was central to nazism. But, I'm not an editor, and I agree omitting it looks a bit suspicious. I wouldn't object to writing something like "aside from theory of communism, most communist governments practiced [links to police-state, mass killings, etc. here]" into the summary.
- kaba0 6y ago
  Communism as an ideology is absolutely not at the same level as nazism, that’s ridiculous. Should capitalism include in the introduction the outsourcing of work to third-world countries where people work for pennies in brutal conditions, the acceleration of climate change, the wars directly caused by oil, and the like? Communism is social and economical ideology, whereas nazism is straight up about killing people. Do not forget the evils of the Soviet Union, but it is not equivalent to communism. And the former does include in the introduction the mass famines, so I don’t see what’s the problem here. And I say that as an Eastern European.
  - Const-me 6y ago
    > Do not forget the evils of the Soviet Union, but it is not equivalent to communism. Yep, also China and North Korea. And in recent history, the evils of Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Cuba, Ethiopia. I don’t believe these are coincidences or implementation issues, the list is too long for that. Can’t explain with soviet occupation either, some countries on the list are very far away and never had Soviet military presence.
    - klibertp 6y ago
      > Poland, Please, don't. Putting PRL anywhere near Cambodia, North Korea, Cuba, or even Hungary is very, very wrong. We had no mass murders here. There were some deaths during workers' protests. There was censorship, and political dissidents were put in prison, some others were denied employment. There was a lot of surveilance. And we had a martial law declared for a while in '81. On the other hand, millions of people were educated (even if Marxism-Leninism was a part of curriculum and some parts of history were erased (like mass-murder of Polish officers by NKVD near Katyn)), millions of people got a chance to work (as long as they didn't publicly criticize socialism or the party too much), to own an apartment; the children got to go to vacations by the sea or in the mountains. Millions of people were lifted from poverty. The pubic infrastructure (roads, trains, hospitals, schools, etc.) improved so much that comparison with the state before war would be a joke. Czechoslovakia and Hungary had Soviet tanks roll over their protests. That was bad. Nothing like that happened in Poland (arguably the '81 was done to avoid such an intervention). So, don't use Poland as an example of how horrible communism is. Because in Poland - it wasn't. Not to mention, even the official propaganda wasn't saying we lived under communism - it was called socialism, and was deemed a first stage before world-wide communist revolotution. Which somehow never materialized, and nobody cried because of that. EDITED to add: > I don’t believe these are coincidences or implementation issues These are not coincidences. This is what happens under authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. As I said already: it doesn't matter what ideology was used to rise to power, once the power is unchecked, it will be abused. There were decidedly anti-communist regimes in South America and parts of Europe and Middle East which murdered people left and right, too. You seem to want to see communism as bad, because people you call communist did something bad to you and your family. I'm sorry, but that's wrong way to look at it. Some people with psychopatic tendencies got to use an ideology (which they probably never understood, nor cared to understand) to seize power and abuse it. Also, I really didn't want to use this card, but maybe there was a reason (other than them being psychopats) for what they did? Maybe they hunted people who collaborated with Nazi forces during the war (you know there were quite a few, right?) Maybe they were afraid they'd be hanged on street lamps (like in Hungary) if they didn't put out the dissent quickly enough? History is not black and white. "Communism is bad and makes people do bad things" is very wrong way to look at it.

Const-me 6y ago

The “nazism” article has links to night of the long knives and holocaust in the very first section. The “communism” article links to the mass murders from the very last page, in an article about 10 pages long. Looking at the edit history of that article, I see the edits to change that are systematically reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communism&type=revision&diff=1010679793&oldid=1010665304 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communism&type=re...

klibertp 6y ago
Ok, I'm not going to defend that, you might be right that the great leap forward or the great famine should be mentioned. The only defense I can think of is that neither is central to the ideology of communism, while holocaust arguably was central to nazism. But, I'm not an editor, and I agree omitting it looks a bit suspicious. I wouldn't object to writing something like "aside from theory of communism, most communist governments practiced [links to police-state, mass killings, etc. here]" into the summary.
kaba0 6y ago
Communism as an ideology is absolutely not at the same level as nazism, that’s ridiculous. Should capitalism include in the introduction the outsourcing of work to third-world countries where people work for pennies in brutal conditions, the acceleration of climate change, the wars directly caused by oil, and the like? Communism is social and economical ideology, whereas nazism is straight up about killing people. Do not forget the evils of the Soviet Union, but it is not equivalent to communism. And the former does include in the introduction the mass famines, so I don’t see what’s the problem here. And I say that as an Eastern European.
- Const-me 6y ago
  > Do not forget the evils of the Soviet Union, but it is not equivalent to communism. Yep, also China and North Korea. And in recent history, the evils of Cambodia, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Cuba, Ethiopia. I don’t believe these are coincidences or implementation issues, the list is too long for that. Can’t explain with soviet occupation either, some countries on the list are very far away and never had Soviet military presence.
  - klibertp 6y ago
    > Poland, Please, don't. Putting PRL anywhere near Cambodia, North Korea, Cuba, or even Hungary is very, very wrong. We had no mass murders here. There were some deaths during workers' protests. There was censorship, and political dissidents were put in prison, some others were denied employment. There was a lot of surveilance. And we had a martial law declared for a while in '81. On the other hand, millions of people were educated (even if Marxism-Leninism was a part of curriculum and some parts of history were erased (like mass-murder of Polish officers by NKVD near Katyn)), millions of people got a chance to work (as long as they didn't publicly criticize socialism or the party too much), to own an apartment; the children got to go to vacations by the sea or in the mountains. Millions of people were lifted from poverty. The pubic infrastructure (roads, trains, hospitals, schools, etc.) improved so much that comparison with the state before war would be a joke. Czechoslovakia and Hungary had Soviet tanks roll over their protests. That was bad. Nothing like that happened in Poland (arguably the '81 was done to avoid such an intervention). So, don't use Poland as an example of how horrible communism is. Because in Poland - it wasn't. Not to mention, even the official propaganda wasn't saying we lived under communism - it was called socialism, and was deemed a first stage before world-wide communist revolotution. Which somehow never materialized, and nobody cried because of that. EDITED to add: > I don’t believe these are coincidences or implementation issues These are not coincidences. This is what happens under authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. As I said already: it doesn't matter what ideology was used to rise to power, once the power is unchecked, it will be abused. There were decidedly anti-communist regimes in South America and parts of Europe and Middle East which murdered people left and right, too. You seem to want to see communism as bad, because people you call communist did something bad to you and your family. I'm sorry, but that's wrong way to look at it. Some people with psychopatic tendencies got to use an ideology (which they probably never understood, nor cared to understand) to seize power and abuse it. Also, I really didn't want to use this card, but maybe there was a reason (other than them being psychopats) for what they did? Maybe they hunted people who collaborated with Nazi forces during the war (you know there were quite a few, right?) Maybe they were afraid they'd be hanged on street lamps (like in Hungary) if they didn't put out the dissent quickly enough? History is not black and white. "Communism is bad and makes people do bad things" is very wrong way to look at it.