7 ms·

Please name one country that never had slavery?

oaiey 6y ago
Never is a hard word. Let me explain: In the US the white were masters and the black were slaves. A white was rarely a slave, a black person was likely a slave. And slavery was not abolished that long ago. In MANY countries people of color X enslaved people of color X. So now - many generations later - no one knows anymore who was slave and who was master. So the term master is insignificant for the individuals in the country and dominantly associated with mastery in something. So while technically the statement is correct, for the discussion here, many countries are not having an active discussion around slavery because it is no concern in the society because there are not slave-descendants (which are mistreated until today) vs. master-descendants.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  So now - many generations later - no one knows anymore who was slave and who was master This is an "all blacks look the same" argument - but in reality, in Africa, everyone knows exactly which tribe they were from and which tribe someone else was from and who enslaved who. And it continues to this day.
  - disease 6y ago
    This is also true to some extent for Native Americans and slavery.
  - oaiey 6y ago
    You are right. Smaller groups/tribes remember in many more countries. Like you said, skin color is maybe not the best example. Take my situation: I am a German. Our slavery ("Leibeigener") cannot be seen in todays society. It cannot be seen by skin color or any other attribute. I try to void the statement "Tell me a society which never had no slavery". My argument is: There are societies which had slaves which you cannot reflect in today society. No ones knows, no one is affected. We have tons of other problems (like the Holocaust and tons of other crimes) we have to work on still today, but slavery among the German society (being a problem today) is no such problem. And I guess, there are many countries where this applies.
    - christkv 6y ago
      I would still consider trafficking of people slavery in everything but name and that is still going on right under our noses all over the world. Hardly anyone cares about that.
  - acqq 6y ago
    Yes. And there are enough places in the world where the "slaveowners" were those who, if I'd named them, I'd be immediately considered here as a "racist" for just mentioning the historical fact. So... I guess we all have to learn that there are more contexts than just one.
    - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
      > And there are enough places in the world where the "slaveowners" were those who, if I'd named them, I'd be immediately considered here as a "racist" for just mentioning the historical fact. You're clearly hinting at something specific, though I don't know what it is. Mind explaining?
      - eitland 6y ago
        Try https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade
        acqq 6y ago
        Also try to figure out why would the current derogatory term for slaves in South Africa have its origin in the word meaning "the unbeliever" in Arabic, i.e. one who's not an adherent of certain religion, as used in their religious texts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology Or that it wasn't an accident that the founder of the said religion, the eternal "role model", was a slaveowner himself.
  - etripe 6y ago
    Your comment is as reductionist as it is to call all slaves black. What about Romans using Germanic slaves or ancient Greece? What about the Middle East, past and to some degree present? What about the Mongols or China?
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      What about Romans using Germanic slaves or ancient Greece? British people have been enslaved at various times by the Romans, the Normans, the Vikings, the Moroccans and probably more besides. This is a matter of history that we are all aware of. But there is noone living right now who was ever a slave of a Norman nor are there any French who ever had a Saxon slave.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- eitland 6y ago
  1 million or more Europeans were enslaved in Africa: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade
  - kaitai 6y ago
    And is there a relatively distinct group of their descendants being pulled over by the police today in Morocco, after continuously being excluded from economic progress for a few hundred years? Actually really curious -- one of the "innovations" of US slavery was the slavery of the descendants of slaves -- was that the case in northern Africa? I think not; if you have some evidence otherwise happy to think about it.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      > after continuously being excluded from economic progress for a few hundred years? Actually really curious -- one of the "innovations" of US slavery was the slavery of the descendants of slaves -- was that the case in northern Africa? I think not; if you have some evidence otherwise happy to think about it. No, if you read the article eitland posted (no judgment, I don't know) then you'd see that it was Muslims that was behind this slave trade. One of their habits (or "innovations" in your terminology) that we don't often talk about was that of literally emasculating (in the literal sense) male captives. This explains a whole lot of why there isn't a white population like the black in US. Another explanation is that some where bought out from slavery by relatives in Europe. You should read up on this. You'll find that compared to the Arabic slave traders (that the Western slave traders sourced from), Western slave traders were kind of nice (edit: or smart, or less sadistic or something). Oh, and their slave trade didn't end until much later, if ever. (Ever heard about how facilities for a certain sports event in Qatar were built?) Why don't we talk about this? Sources are after all plentiful. Edit: Let me add my guess: it doesn't fit the narrative that white, Christian men are worse than everyone else.
      - skinkestek 6y ago
        From elsewhere in the comments, a quote by Thomas Sowell: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26496786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26496786
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Less than 1% of American whites during slavery owned slaves. In fact, the most identifying characteristic of American slave-owners was Judaism. You could just as easily say that Jews were masters and blacks were slaves, although your argument would be equally as incorrect and ignorant. To say that "whites were masters" is just as ignorant as saying "all 1940s Germans were Nazis".
Macha 6y ago
There are a lot of countries 100 years or less old, that were parts of big european empires, unless you want to hold them accountable for what the foreign ruling class did.
- oaiey 6y ago
  Well ... it is societies which have a problem. As a German, my society is very old. As a country we are very young. But we would never think, that nationalism would not be a problem we had in our society. Accountable implies a lot. But mindful we should be.
splix 6y ago
Well, as it was discussed in another thread, in another culture/language it may be totally not about slavery. I mean the word "master", which comes from a common Latin root, in different languages it's evolved into a different meaning. So for Americans, it has an association with slavery (which I'm surprised to learn), but exactly the same word "master" in another language means just "doing good work".
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  For most Americans, until very recently, it only had an association with slavery in very specific contexts. Virtually nobody heard phrases like "git push origin master" or "I'm working towards my Master's degree" and thought "slavery." The blanket association is a product of very recent political activism.
- aksss 6y ago
  I think this idea that “master” is associated so narrowly in English is ignorance, perhaps even willful. It obviously has broader meaning depending on context, and I would argue that the majority of its use is disassociated entirely with the history of the American slave trade (just think through examples and count them). It also occurs to me that having these kinds of fights means people are running out of meaningful struggles, like we’re trying to wring out the last 5% and it gets inefficient because it starts doing harm as well. Then you see these hoaxes like Smollett and others and start thinking that the demand for egregious behavior exceeds supply in the US. It can happen, but it’s surprisingly rare given the state of conversation and rhetoric in this country.
Igelau 6y ago
Sealand
- sneak 6y ago
  I know someone who might disagree.
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26491220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26491220.

Never is a hard word. Let me explain: In the US the white were masters and the black were slaves. A white was rarely a slave, a black person was likely a slave. And slavery was not abolished that long ago. In MANY countries people of color X enslaved people of color X. So now - many generations later - no one knows anymore who was slave and who was master. So the term master is insignificant for the individuals in the country and dominantly associated with mastery in something. So while technically the statement is correct, for the discussion here, many countries are not having an active discussion around slavery because it is no concern in the society because there are not slave-descendants (which are mistreated until today) vs. master-descendants.

goatinaboat 6y ago
So now - many generations later - no one knows anymore who was slave and who was master This is an "all blacks look the same" argument - but in reality, in Africa, everyone knows exactly which tribe they were from and which tribe someone else was from and who enslaved who. And it continues to this day.
- disease 6y ago
  This is also true to some extent for Native Americans and slavery.
- oaiey 6y ago
  You are right. Smaller groups/tribes remember in many more countries. Like you said, skin color is maybe not the best example. Take my situation: I am a German. Our slavery ("Leibeigener") cannot be seen in todays society. It cannot be seen by skin color or any other attribute. I try to void the statement "Tell me a society which never had no slavery". My argument is: There are societies which had slaves which you cannot reflect in today society. No ones knows, no one is affected. We have tons of other problems (like the Holocaust and tons of other crimes) we have to work on still today, but slavery among the German society (being a problem today) is no such problem. And I guess, there are many countries where this applies.
  - christkv 6y ago
    I would still consider trafficking of people slavery in everything but name and that is still going on right under our noses all over the world. Hardly anyone cares about that.
- acqq 6y ago
  Yes. And there are enough places in the world where the "slaveowners" were those who, if I'd named them, I'd be immediately considered here as a "racist" for just mentioning the historical fact. So... I guess we all have to learn that there are more contexts than just one.
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    > And there are enough places in the world where the "slaveowners" were those who, if I'd named them, I'd be immediately considered here as a "racist" for just mentioning the historical fact. You're clearly hinting at something specific, though I don't know what it is. Mind explaining?
    - eitland 6y ago
      Try https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade
      - acqq 6y ago
        Also try to figure out why would the current derogatory term for slaves in South Africa have its origin in the word meaning "the unbeliever" in Arabic, i.e. one who's not an adherent of certain religion, as used in their religious texts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology Or that it wasn't an accident that the founder of the said religion, the eternal "role model", was a slaveowner himself.
- etripe 6y ago
  Your comment is as reductionist as it is to call all slaves black. What about Romans using Germanic slaves or ancient Greece? What about the Middle East, past and to some degree present? What about the Mongols or China?
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    What about Romans using Germanic slaves or ancient Greece? British people have been enslaved at various times by the Romans, the Normans, the Vikings, the Moroccans and probably more besides. This is a matter of history that we are all aware of. But there is noone living right now who was ever a slave of a Norman nor are there any French who ever had a Saxon slave.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
eitland 6y ago
1 million or more Europeans were enslaved in Africa: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade
- kaitai 6y ago
  And is there a relatively distinct group of their descendants being pulled over by the police today in Morocco, after continuously being excluded from economic progress for a few hundred years? Actually really curious -- one of the "innovations" of US slavery was the slavery of the descendants of slaves -- was that the case in northern Africa? I think not; if you have some evidence otherwise happy to think about it.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    > after continuously being excluded from economic progress for a few hundred years? Actually really curious -- one of the "innovations" of US slavery was the slavery of the descendants of slaves -- was that the case in northern Africa? I think not; if you have some evidence otherwise happy to think about it. No, if you read the article eitland posted (no judgment, I don't know) then you'd see that it was Muslims that was behind this slave trade. One of their habits (or "innovations" in your terminology) that we don't often talk about was that of literally emasculating (in the literal sense) male captives. This explains a whole lot of why there isn't a white population like the black in US. Another explanation is that some where bought out from slavery by relatives in Europe. You should read up on this. You'll find that compared to the Arabic slave traders (that the Western slave traders sourced from), Western slave traders were kind of nice (edit: or smart, or less sadistic or something). Oh, and their slave trade didn't end until much later, if ever. (Ever heard about how facilities for a certain sports event in Qatar were built?) Why don't we talk about this? Sources are after all plentiful. Edit: Let me add my guess: it doesn't fit the narrative that white, Christian men are worse than everyone else.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      From elsewhere in the comments, a quote by Thomas Sowell: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26496786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26496786
jimbob45 6y ago
Less than 1% of American whites during slavery owned slaves. In fact, the most identifying characteristic of American slave-owners was Judaism. You could just as easily say that Jews were masters and blacks were slaves, although your argument would be equally as incorrect and ignorant. To say that "whites were masters" is just as ignorant as saying "all 1940s Germans were Nazis".

Macha 6y ago

There are a lot of countries 100 years or less old, that were parts of big european empires, unless you want to hold them accountable for what the foreign ruling class did.

oaiey 6y ago
Well ... it is societies which have a problem. As a German, my society is very old. As a country we are very young. But we would never think, that nationalism would not be a problem we had in our society. Accountable implies a lot. But mindful we should be.

splix 6y ago

Well, as it was discussed in another thread, in another culture/language it may be totally not about slavery. I mean the word "master", which comes from a common Latin root, in different languages it's evolved into a different meaning. So for Americans, it has an association with slavery (which I'm surprised to learn), but exactly the same word "master" in another language means just "doing good work".

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
For most Americans, until very recently, it only had an association with slavery in very specific contexts. Virtually nobody heard phrases like "git push origin master" or "I'm working towards my Master's degree" and thought "slavery." The blanket association is a product of very recent political activism.
aksss 6y ago
I think this idea that “master” is associated so narrowly in English is ignorance, perhaps even willful. It obviously has broader meaning depending on context, and I would argue that the majority of its use is disassociated entirely with the history of the American slave trade (just think through examples and count them). It also occurs to me that having these kinds of fights means people are running out of meaningful struggles, like we’re trying to wring out the last 5% and it gets inefficient because it starts doing harm as well. Then you see these hoaxes like Smollett and others and start thinking that the demand for egregious behavior exceeds supply in the US. It can happen, but it’s surprisingly rare given the state of conversation and rhetoric in this country.

Igelau 6y ago

Sealand

sneak 6y ago
I know someone who might disagree.

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26491220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26491220.