4 ms·

So which utopian country do you live in where racism is not an issue?

by sjm 6y ago

conradfr 6y ago
I never said that, I answered in the context of changing "master" and thinking about bias. FWIW I live in Paris, France and I think the tech scene is quite diverse here. And I'm not saying racism is not an issue, but I also have black friends that told me that they never experienced it.
- Ragingweb 6y ago
  "I also have black friends" is anecdotal evidence at best. Regarding the diversity of the tech scene, it's not that good in France.
  - conradfr 6y ago
    Well ethnic studies are forbidden in France so it's hard to not relying on anecdotal data for this topic, so all I know is that I've got managers and colleagues of all colors.
    - aerosmile 6y ago
      > ethnic studies are forbidden in France Yep, crazy. As an offshoot of that, affirmative action is also forbidden. True story.
      - remh 6y ago
        Less crazy when you learn why: "There are no public policies in France that target benefits or confer recognition on groups defined as races. For many Frenchmen, the very term race sends a shiver running down their spines, since it tends to recall the atrocities of Nazi Germany and the complicity of France’s Vichy regime in deporting Jews to concentration camps. Race is such a taboo term that a 1978 law specifically banned the collection and computerized storage of race-based data without the express consent of the interviewees or a waiver by a state committee. France therefore collects no census or other data on the race (or ethnicity) of its citizens."[0] tl;dr: such data was used during the Nazi occupation and France helped deportation [0]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-policy-in-france/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-policy-in-france/
        aerosmile 6y ago
        I am not implying that France had some hidden motives in passing this legislature. But WW2 trauma is preventing them from making policy decisions that would benefit the society today. Here's just one very practical example of that: in the below WSJ article [0], it's claimed that the lack of ethnic statistics has contributed to housing and employment discrimination, among many other problems. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-france-race-data/2020/06/25/e5b4d0a6-b58d-11ea-9a1d-d3db1cbe07ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-fran...
        remh 6y ago
        Agreed. I'm not defending the lack of ethnic statistics. Just offering the perspective from the other side. I strongly believe you cannot improve things you do not measure.
        malandrew 6y ago
        > the lack of X statistics has contributed to problem Y The term "contribution" implies active impact on a problem. It comes from the Latin "contribuere" which means to "bring together" or to "add". If X contributes to Y, you should be able to measure the contribution, but there's no way to measure the impact of something that never existed in the first place.
        908B64B197 6y ago
        They need ethnic statistics to prove that residents of denser neighborhood working essential jobs (that can't be done remotely for the most part) are disproportionately affected by COVID? I'm sure the far right in France would love to have ethnic statistics, especially for crime rates... it's the left that historically pushed back against it.
      - kergonath 6y ago
        It depends. Affirmative action depending on skin colour is giving someone a different treatment because of their skin colour, which is racist. There are several forms of affirmative action that depend on things like income and local disparities.
- aerosmile 6y ago
  It would be very disingenuous to credit the French with being a very tolerant society. They are many other things, but tolerant is not one of them.
  - tjs8rj 6y ago
    By what measure? I’d argue that the majority of countries in the world are “less tolerant on average” than France, and the vast majority of societies in human history have been less tolerant than modern France. Thus, France is actually incredibly tolerant in the grand scheme. What’s your yardstick in leveling such accusations?
    - aerosmile 6y ago
      I don't have the time to give you an essay on this, but here's the very first search result on this topic - and it's a pretty good one [0]. Note that France was the first country in Europe to do that. Coincidence? "In 2010, France passed a law prohibiting people from wearing clothing in public that covers your face. And although many blasted the law as Islamophobic, the "burqa ban" remains in place today, punishable with a fine and citizenship course." Here's the third search result for the term "is france a tolerant society?", from Wikipedia which has a wiki dedicated to that topic [1]: "Racism is regarded by many in French society as a significant social problem. Racism against Jews and Muslims has a long history, and acts have been reported against members of resident groups including Algerian, Berbers and Arabs. In 2016, the French National Commission on Human Rights reported that 8% of French believe that some races are superior to others." [0] https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/847433454/from-niqab-to-n95 https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/847433454/from-niqab-to-n95 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_France
      - aerosmile 6y ago
        And just to make sure my original sentiment comes across as intended: France is awesome and I loved every minute I spent there. But I wouldn't list "tolerant" as an attribute that would come to mind when trying to describe its culture to someone who's never been there.
- remh 6y ago
  I'm also French (but living in the US). How is that not selection bias if you only ask your friends which I presume you met through school or work? These friends have already overcome the hurdles that minorities have to go through.
  - conradfr 6y ago
    Of course it's selection bias and that's why I specifically did not generalize their case, but I'm not sure what "hurdles they had to go through" if they basically said they had none? In the end you'll find that it's the classic divide between Europe and America, seeing society as different classes versus different "races".
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    > I'm also French (but living in the US). How is that not selection bias if you only ask your friends which I presume you met through school or work? These friends have already overcome the hurdles that minorities have to go through. Many statements are selection bias or apex fallacy. The author of the original article talks about $20m donations as though that's the case for the majority of white people, instead of just a rounding error. What's worse is assuming that an observation must be selection bias, when selection bias needs demonstrating.
    - remh 6y ago
      I was not replying to the article but to conradfr.
- ggregoire 6y ago
  > FWIW I live in Paris, France and I think the tech scene is quite diverse here. Having free education for everybody surely helps.
dang 6y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar. We're trying to go the other way here, to the extent possible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

So which utopian country do you live in where racism is not an issue?

by sjm 6y ago

So which utopian country do you live in where racism is not an issue?

I never said that, I answered in the context of changing "master" and thinking about bias. FWIW I live in Paris, France and I think the tech scene is quite diverse here. And I'm not saying racism is not an issue, but I also have black friends that told me that they never experienced it.

Ragingweb 6y ago
"I also have black friends" is anecdotal evidence at best. Regarding the diversity of the tech scene, it's not that good in France.
- conradfr 6y ago
  Well ethnic studies are forbidden in France so it's hard to not relying on anecdotal data for this topic, so all I know is that I've got managers and colleagues of all colors.
  - aerosmile 6y ago
    > ethnic studies are forbidden in France Yep, crazy. As an offshoot of that, affirmative action is also forbidden. True story.
    - remh 6y ago
      Less crazy when you learn why: "There are no public policies in France that target benefits or confer recognition on groups defined as races. For many Frenchmen, the very term race sends a shiver running down their spines, since it tends to recall the atrocities of Nazi Germany and the complicity of France’s Vichy regime in deporting Jews to concentration camps. Race is such a taboo term that a 1978 law specifically banned the collection and computerized storage of race-based data without the express consent of the interviewees or a waiver by a state committee. France therefore collects no census or other data on the race (or ethnicity) of its citizens."[0] tl;dr: such data was used during the Nazi occupation and France helped deportation [0]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-policy-in-france/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-policy-in-france/
      - aerosmile 6y ago
        I am not implying that France had some hidden motives in passing this legislature. But WW2 trauma is preventing them from making policy decisions that would benefit the society today. Here's just one very practical example of that: in the below WSJ article [0], it's claimed that the lack of ethnic statistics has contributed to housing and employment discrimination, among many other problems. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-france-race-data/2020/06/25/e5b4d0a6-b58d-11ea-9a1d-d3db1cbe07ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-fran...
        remh 6y ago
        Agreed. I'm not defending the lack of ethnic statistics. Just offering the perspective from the other side. I strongly believe you cannot improve things you do not measure.
        malandrew 6y ago
        > the lack of X statistics has contributed to problem Y The term "contribution" implies active impact on a problem. It comes from the Latin "contribuere" which means to "bring together" or to "add". If X contributes to Y, you should be able to measure the contribution, but there's no way to measure the impact of something that never existed in the first place.
        908B64B197 6y ago
        They need ethnic statistics to prove that residents of denser neighborhood working essential jobs (that can't be done remotely for the most part) are disproportionately affected by COVID? I'm sure the far right in France would love to have ethnic statistics, especially for crime rates... it's the left that historically pushed back against it.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      It depends. Affirmative action depending on skin colour is giving someone a different treatment because of their skin colour, which is racist. There are several forms of affirmative action that depend on things like income and local disparities.
aerosmile 6y ago
It would be very disingenuous to credit the French with being a very tolerant society. They are many other things, but tolerant is not one of them.
- tjs8rj 6y ago
  By what measure? I’d argue that the majority of countries in the world are “less tolerant on average” than France, and the vast majority of societies in human history have been less tolerant than modern France. Thus, France is actually incredibly tolerant in the grand scheme. What’s your yardstick in leveling such accusations?
  - aerosmile 6y ago
    I don't have the time to give you an essay on this, but here's the very first search result on this topic - and it's a pretty good one [0]. Note that France was the first country in Europe to do that. Coincidence? "In 2010, France passed a law prohibiting people from wearing clothing in public that covers your face. And although many blasted the law as Islamophobic, the "burqa ban" remains in place today, punishable with a fine and citizenship course." Here's the third search result for the term "is france a tolerant society?", from Wikipedia which has a wiki dedicated to that topic [1]: "Racism is regarded by many in French society as a significant social problem. Racism against Jews and Muslims has a long history, and acts have been reported against members of resident groups including Algerian, Berbers and Arabs. In 2016, the French National Commission on Human Rights reported that 8% of French believe that some races are superior to others." [0] https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/847433454/from-niqab-to-n95 https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/847433454/from-niqab-to-n95 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_France
    - aerosmile 6y ago
      And just to make sure my original sentiment comes across as intended: France is awesome and I loved every minute I spent there. But I wouldn't list "tolerant" as an attribute that would come to mind when trying to describe its culture to someone who's never been there.
remh 6y ago
I'm also French (but living in the US). How is that not selection bias if you only ask your friends which I presume you met through school or work? These friends have already overcome the hurdles that minorities have to go through.
- conradfr 6y ago
  Of course it's selection bias and that's why I specifically did not generalize their case, but I'm not sure what "hurdles they had to go through" if they basically said they had none? In the end you'll find that it's the classic divide between Europe and America, seeing society as different classes versus different "races".
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  > I'm also French (but living in the US). How is that not selection bias if you only ask your friends which I presume you met through school or work? These friends have already overcome the hurdles that minorities have to go through. Many statements are selection bias or apex fallacy. The author of the original article talks about $20m donations as though that's the case for the majority of white people, instead of just a rounding error. What's worse is assuming that an observation must be selection bias, when selection bias needs demonstrating.
  - remh 6y ago
    I was not replying to the article but to conradfr.
ggregoire 6y ago
> FWIW I live in Paris, France and I think the tech scene is quite diverse here. Having free education for everybody surely helps.

dang 6y ago

Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar. We're trying to go the other way here, to the extent possible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html