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There is no question he really could have exchanged the coins for $500k of value though. If he had sold the bitcoins for cash and then used the cash to buy bit

by shawnz 6y ago

There is no question he really could have exchanged the coins for $500k of value though. If he had sold the bitcoins for cash and then used the cash to buy bitcoins again immediately after so that he could send them to the scammer, then would they be "realized" as opposed to "unrealized", even though there's no practical difference between the two situations?

viraptor 6y ago
It's the same situation. You don't have $500k - you have an opportunity to get $500k if you do things right. If it's kept as BTC, there's a number of things that could bring the value to $0 without the scam.
- shawnz 6y ago
  I think this is a pointless distinction. A 500k bank balance is just an "opportunity" to withdraw 500k of cash. There are a number of things that could bring your bank balance to $0 without the scam. 500k of cash is just an "opportunity" to extract 500k of value. etc.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    A bank balance is different. The value of $500k in $ doesn't change. There's regulation which dictates what banks can do with that money. There's industry enforced insurance which means even if the bank goes under, you can still recover a decent chunk of that money. Putting money into a basic bank account is by law not gambling, speculation, or investment. You don't have opportunity to withdraw it - you've got the right to do it.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      OK, sure. Those things are all true, but it doesn't change my point: He could have "realized" the gains any time he wanted and it wouldn't have affected the outcome of this scam. For all we know he actually did "realize" them at some point and just bought the coins again to send them to the scammer. It makes no difference in this situation.
      - viraptor 6y ago
        > For all we know he actually did "realize" them at some point and just bought the coins again to send them to the scammer. It makes no difference in this situation. I think it makes a big difference. "I'll gamble my 10 BTC" and "I'll exchange my actual $500k to gamble as BTC" would have a very different threshold for action. I suspect he wouldn't do that with real money. Same reason F2P games get you to exchange money into tokens (some even twice) to make you lose connection to the real value.
        shawnz 6y ago
        F2P game tokens are a much different situation because they are not a liquid asset (you can only buy them) > "I'll gamble my 10 BTC" and "I'll exchange my actual $500k to gamble as BTC" would have a very different threshold for action For a rational investor, they shouldn't.

by shawnz 6y ago

viraptor 6y ago

It's the same situation. You don't have $500k - you have an opportunity to get $500k if you do things right. If it's kept as BTC, there's a number of things that could bring the value to $0 without the scam.

shawnz 6y ago
I think this is a pointless distinction. A 500k bank balance is just an "opportunity" to withdraw 500k of cash. There are a number of things that could bring your bank balance to $0 without the scam. 500k of cash is just an "opportunity" to extract 500k of value. etc.
- viraptor 6y ago
  A bank balance is different. The value of $500k in $ doesn't change. There's regulation which dictates what banks can do with that money. There's industry enforced insurance which means even if the bank goes under, you can still recover a decent chunk of that money. Putting money into a basic bank account is by law not gambling, speculation, or investment. You don't have opportunity to withdraw it - you've got the right to do it.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    OK, sure. Those things are all true, but it doesn't change my point: He could have "realized" the gains any time he wanted and it wouldn't have affected the outcome of this scam. For all we know he actually did "realize" them at some point and just bought the coins again to send them to the scammer. It makes no difference in this situation.
    - viraptor 6y ago
      > For all we know he actually did "realize" them at some point and just bought the coins again to send them to the scammer. It makes no difference in this situation. I think it makes a big difference. "I'll gamble my 10 BTC" and "I'll exchange my actual $500k to gamble as BTC" would have a very different threshold for action. I suspect he wouldn't do that with real money. Same reason F2P games get you to exchange money into tokens (some even twice) to make you lose connection to the real value.
      - shawnz 6y ago
        F2P game tokens are a much different situation because they are not a liquid asset (you can only buy them) > "I'll gamble my 10 BTC" and "I'll exchange my actual $500k to gamble as BTC" would have a very different threshold for action For a rational investor, they shouldn't.