5 ms·

And therein lies the problem yet again of “neutral point of view”, — with respect to what? the U.S.A. only? In most of the world, “liberal” does not mean “left

And therein lies the problem yet again of “neutral point of view”, — with respect to what? the U.S.A. only? In most of the world, “liberal” does not mean “left”; it means capitalism. It is a common sentiment of the European that both what the U.S.A. calls “left” and “right” is rather “right” in his eyes, with both he Democratic, and Republican Parties espousing more right wing fiscal policies than many of the most right wing European parties would dream to tender. The U.S.A.-man might look at it from a perspective of what he calls “right” vs. “left” in terms of neutrality, but from where I stand it is mostly an issue of “U.S.A. culture” vs. “global perspective”, as even articles that pertain to events in specific countries on English-Language Wikipeia seem to very often be analysed from what is clearly a U.S.A. cultural perspective.

zpeti 6y ago
Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. I really don't think europeans think the left in american are really "right". Europe is not further left than the american left. Grrr, what does european even mean. It's like 40 different governments and countries. All with different cultures.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. “liberal” very much means capitalism in most European political discourse or really most places outside of the -U.S.A. Consider that even on Wikipedia, where non-U.S.A. politics is discussed, the term is typically so used: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_for_Freedom_and_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_for_Freedom_a... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany... > I really don't think europeans think the left in american are really "right". Europe is not further left than the american left. It is quite a common sentiment one hears from European that from their perspective all U.S.A. politics is right wing. Consider that there are very few European countries where even the most right wing parties would ever suggest such a system as at-will employment, which is pervasive throughout the U.S.A., and which neither party has shown any desire to end. — it is really seen as quite dystopian from a European perspective. To say that Europe is not further left is a very strange claim. You will find no European country, or many developed countries at all, with the following, which are common to universal in the U.S.A.: - The right of employers to terminate without first seeking approval from an employment court or similar organ - A lack of universal healthcare - A lack of universal access to higher education - The legal allowance of advertising drugs - Non-defaultable student loans - Very low minimum wages - Waivability of refund rights Such things are generally considered extremely capitalist in most developed nations, but are quite normal in the U.S.A.. > Grrr, what does european even mean. It's like 40 different governments and countries. All with different cultures. And you will find that in each and every one of them healthcare is a universal right, at will employment does not exist, and drugs cannot be advertised, and probably many more of what I listed. It is not that Europe is so culturally homogeneous, it is that the U.S.A. is very exceptional in how capitalist it is. You will also not find most of these things in, say, Canada, or Australia, or any other developed nations. — the U.S.A. is rather unique in how much it indulges the big man at the expense of the little man, and neither party seems particularly interested in implementing changes that would bring it to a similar balance that the rest of the developed world enjoys.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- webmaven 6y ago
  > Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. How about the term 'neoliberal'?
- brnt 6y ago
  You're right that Europe is a pretty diverse place, but having lived in a few countries there and being in contact with people from at least half of the countries I can't say I've ever heard any European describe anything in the US as leftish. Perhaps parts of the current American diversity discourse excepted.
- Bayart 6y ago
  >Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. « Liberal » means economic liberalism in pretty much all of continental Europe.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    It means it in pretty much all of the world including, say, Australia. Frankness be, it makes one wonder how one country can so often develop different political terminology from the standard in about the entire world. A similar situation is that in the U.S.A., blue has become the color of left wing politics, and red for right wing politics, a fairly recent symbolism dating back less than two decades, whereas for centuries in the entire world it has been opposite. How could U.S.A. news stations possibly have decided upon this? it seems to me that the news editors that approved this must have been largely ignorant of this symbolism when they decided to go against the rest of the world here, and so was the population, which must mean that they weren't aware that dating to the French revolution, the left has flown red, and the right has flown blue. The cold war is a fairly recent event; surely they noticed that the communists took red as their color of choice?
    - Bayart 6y ago
      >A similar situation is that in the U.S.A., blue has become the color of left wing politics, and red for right wing politics, a fairly recent symbolism dating back less than two decades, whereas for centuries in the entire world it has been opposite. Well, « blue » as a political signifier very much started on the left, being associated to American and French Republicans (in the true sense of the word, not the GOP). The right wing being « white », ie. monarchist. Coincidentally that meaning also found posterity in the Russian Revolution as the colour of the Tsarist regime also happened to be white (possibly in imitation of the French, but religious reasons also play into it). As far as I'm aware, the US under a « swap » of sorts as the Northern and Southern wings of the Democratic and Republican parties broke up and reorganized.
      - Blikkentrekker 6y ago

zpeti 6y ago

Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. I really don't think europeans think the left in american are really "right". Europe is not further left than the american left. Grrr, what does european even mean. It's like 40 different governments and countries. All with different cultures.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. “liberal” very much means capitalism in most European political discourse or really most places outside of the -U.S.A. Consider that even on Wikipedia, where non-U.S.A. politics is discussed, the term is typically so used: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_for_Freedom_and_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_for_Freedom_a... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany... > I really don't think europeans think the left in american are really "right". Europe is not further left than the american left. It is quite a common sentiment one hears from European that from their perspective all U.S.A. politics is right wing. Consider that there are very few European countries where even the most right wing parties would ever suggest such a system as at-will employment, which is pervasive throughout the U.S.A., and which neither party has shown any desire to end. — it is really seen as quite dystopian from a European perspective. To say that Europe is not further left is a very strange claim. You will find no European country, or many developed countries at all, with the following, which are common to universal in the U.S.A.: - The right of employers to terminate without first seeking approval from an employment court or similar organ - A lack of universal healthcare - A lack of universal access to higher education - The legal allowance of advertising drugs - Non-defaultable student loans - Very low minimum wages - Waivability of refund rights Such things are generally considered extremely capitalist in most developed nations, but are quite normal in the U.S.A.. > Grrr, what does european even mean. It's like 40 different governments and countries. All with different cultures. And you will find that in each and every one of them healthcare is a universal right, at will employment does not exist, and drugs cannot be advertised, and probably many more of what I listed. It is not that Europe is so culturally homogeneous, it is that the U.S.A. is very exceptional in how capitalist it is. You will also not find most of these things in, say, Canada, or Australia, or any other developed nations. — the U.S.A. is rather unique in how much it indulges the big man at the expense of the little man, and neither party seems particularly interested in implementing changes that would bring it to a similar balance that the rest of the developed world enjoys.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
webmaven 6y ago
> Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. Maybe if you say libertarian it still does. How about the term 'neoliberal'?
brnt 6y ago
You're right that Europe is a pretty diverse place, but having lived in a few countries there and being in contact with people from at least half of the countries I can't say I've ever heard any European describe anything in the US as leftish. Perhaps parts of the current American diversity discourse excepted.
Bayart 6y ago
>Liberal has not meant capitalism for a very long time, not in europe or anywhere else. « Liberal » means economic liberalism in pretty much all of continental Europe.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  It means it in pretty much all of the world including, say, Australia. Frankness be, it makes one wonder how one country can so often develop different political terminology from the standard in about the entire world. A similar situation is that in the U.S.A., blue has become the color of left wing politics, and red for right wing politics, a fairly recent symbolism dating back less than two decades, whereas for centuries in the entire world it has been opposite. How could U.S.A. news stations possibly have decided upon this? it seems to me that the news editors that approved this must have been largely ignorant of this symbolism when they decided to go against the rest of the world here, and so was the population, which must mean that they weren't aware that dating to the French revolution, the left has flown red, and the right has flown blue. The cold war is a fairly recent event; surely they noticed that the communists took red as their color of choice?
  - Bayart 6y ago
    >A similar situation is that in the U.S.A., blue has become the color of left wing politics, and red for right wing politics, a fairly recent symbolism dating back less than two decades, whereas for centuries in the entire world it has been opposite. Well, « blue » as a political signifier very much started on the left, being associated to American and French Republicans (in the true sense of the word, not the GOP). The right wing being « white », ie. monarchist. Coincidentally that meaning also found posterity in the Russian Revolution as the colour of the Tsarist regime also happened to be white (possibly in imitation of the French, but religious reasons also play into it). As far as I'm aware, the US under a « swap » of sorts as the Northern and Southern wings of the Democratic and Republican parties broke up and reorganized.
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago