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If Tesla Is the Apple of Electric Vehicles, Volkswagen Bets It Can Be Samsung
- throwaway_truth 6y agoVolkswagen are literally a Nazi company. No thanks.
- neuronic 6y agoHow do you even come up with this kind of mental garbage? Do you also not fly Boeing because they are directly related to killing countless of civilians across the planet, including two nuclear weapons drops on populated cities by their B-29s?
- villasv 6y agoYou should learn when to use the word "literally".
- reader_mode 6y agoThey got the shitty software part down just right :D
- drcongo 6y agoTesla's build quality is closer to the kind of $50 Android phone you find on wish.com than it is to Apple's. I have no idea how Bloomberg clickbait articles end up on here so often, but this particular one is a new low - an article about VW that they've shoehorned both Tesla and Apple into for the clicks.
- arcticbull 6y agoNot to mention this belies a misunderstanding of Apple's business model. Tesla owns 80% of the electric car market and makes zero profit. That sounds an awful lot like Android's place in the market (72% market share, 30% of profit share) [1] Samsung only has 17% profit share - nobody else makes any money. Apple's always owned the entirety of the profit in the entire global smartphone space. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2019/12/22/global-phone-profits-apple-66-samsung-17-everyone-else-unlucky-13/?sh=53264cb52ff3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2019/12/22/global-...
- Gravityloss 6y agoTesla had about 18% market share in October and it's probably gone down from there. https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-global-ev-sales-change/ https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-globa...
- arcticbull 6y agoIndeed, I was using the US numbers [1] - my bad. [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cars-ev-registrations-us/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cars-ev-registratio...
- agumonkey 6y agoI wonder if the alleged China made 25000$ model will change that.
- Gravityloss 6y agoAnd the Berlin gigafactory. It seems the casting machines are already being installed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kjwRExLl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kjwRExLl0
- jcims 6y agoHow is investment in growth (e.g. gigafactory construction) recognized financially?
- arcticbull 6y agoI'm more curious how investment of carbon credits (the only source of profit) which are soon to no longer be required by their competitors, in speculative bubbles (e.g. Bitcoin) which are primarily fueled by Chinese coal plants is accounted for. I'd love to have coffee with their Master of Coin.
- mavhc 6y ago
- jcims 6y agoI had a short infatuation with Audis (VW) until I owned them. My S5 got hauled off by Carvana on Monday and my wife's SQ5 just got traded in on a Ford yesterday. Fit and finish was impeccable and certainly better than Tesla's, but they were constantly breaking in ridiculous ways. My advice, never ever own one outside of warranty unless it's >20 years old and you can wrench on it yourself. YMMV of course.
- arethuza 6y agoMy wife had an Audi as company car for a while - which kept breaking. Meanwhile I've had VWs and now Skodas for years and never had a problem.
- jcims 6y agoAs long as they keep it simple they do OK. Audis are rolling wiring harnesses.
- nobleach 6y agoFor VWs, it's always the electrical systems.... If it's 10 years old, I can almost guarantee it's going to have problems. With that said, you'll always see the rouge 1999 Jetta tooling around town, and either the owner got really lucky, or they've worked on it.
- jcims 6y agoSister in law had a ~’04 Jetta. Mechanically it was sound, but it did have a continuous stream of electrical problems. My nephew had an ‘09 CC that blew a fuel pump and then blew up an engine. Nice car otherwise.
- arethuza 6y agoThe only car we've had that had electrical problems was a Toyota - where the instruments would keep cutting out. Turns out this was caused by the sunroof... Edit: Sunroof leaked, water collected at lowest point inside car where Toyota had decided to locate electrical connectors that fed the instruments.
- Shadonototro 6y agothe journalist probably own some $TSLA
- arcanon 6y agoWhat are you smoking? Apple has had a ton of problems with quality on their recent airpods max launch, widely documented. Also remember the apple butterfly switch keyboard fiasco?? Sony has much better quality than Apple right now.
- drcongo 6y agoWhere did Sony come into this?! Were there not enough entirely unrelated brands in the headline for you?
- dinero_rojo 6y agoNot that I’ve given it tons of thought, but Tesla seems more like the Motorola (thinking of the razr in particular here in that both seem to be more status symbols than anything) to some future innovators on the horizon.
- zhdc1 6y agoI'd say they're closer to Samsung, honestly. They make their own components and sell an upscale, premium product in high quantities. I would be more interested to see who eventually becomes the Apple of the EV works.
- blcknight 6y agoOut of anyone, Nissan I think has a better chance to become a dominant EV player, they've got a decade of experience with the LEAF. They were running a bit behind, but Ariya looks a lot more mature than the id.4.
- DoingIsLearning 6y agoThe thing is EV for the masses needs a price point that more closely competes with ICE (even if with a shorter range). The US centric 'luxury' EV will always be marginal in other cost-sensitive markets. I do think Nissan's know-how will play a role but much more likely that the actual sales numbers will come from the Alliance's more agressive cost-cutting brands like Renault or even Dacia.
- oblio 6y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platform#Applications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platfor... Volkswagen is about to launch many electric modele across many brands, using a single modular platform.
- marticode 6y agoVW has the financial health and scale to muscle in more easily than Nissan (which isn't doing so well right now). I feel the difficulty of making EVs has been vastly exaggerated - any manufacturer that knows how to make an hybrid knows how to make an EV.
- m_mueller 6y ago> any manufacturer that knows how to make an hybrid knows how to make an EV. they do. they however do not seem to understand how to build up a good charging infastructure.
- hef19898 6y agoThat might be Tesla's biggest value contribution, building and forcing others to build charging infrastructure. Doesn't necessarily have to be the OEM. Right now no car company is running fuel stations nor are oil companies building cars.
- sremani 6y agoOne has to look at the sales of Non-Tesla EVs. You can get a lightly used Chevrolet BoltEV for USD $15,000. That is absolute collapse of the value. People get angry at Traditional Car companies when they put most of these models on limited, but look at the Sales of Jaguar, Audi. Benz does not even bring their EV to US. If you are buying a new EV just buy a Tesla, they are a generation ahead in many things but also making their own seats, reducing the wiring in the car etc. neat innovations. Tesla is a halo brand, but more than that they have optimized the many things in a car from first principles. There are many vying to be Samsung of EVs but only time will tell. My Bet is still on the Japanese.. with solid state battery. I have been wrong a lot so.. lets just call it a hunch.
- ketamine__ 6y agoSeats and wiring huh? Wouldn't a BMW with xDrive be better?
- jack_riminton 6y agoWith respect to the previous poster those weren't the best examples I'd chose battery tech, self-driving stack, operating system, design and manufacturing expertise i.e. full body vehicle stamping
- sremani 6y agoI know my examples are not shiny. I am not a Tesla fanboy, but I have watched Sandy Monroe interview Musk, and my examples show how deep and wide the innovation goes that seem trivial from outside.
- ketamine__ 6y agoSelf-driving stack is crap compared to Waymo. No lidar. That's a dangerous piece of crap.
- jack_riminton 6y agoThe evidence would suggest you don't need Lidar, one example is this video comparing them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibfRCgMiFE&ab_channel=WholeMarsCatalog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibfRCgMiFE&ab_channel=Whole... Bearing in mind that the Tesla is a Beta too, I'd say its far from certain which stack is crap But I'll happily review more evidence in a year or two :)
- hourislate 6y agoI would hope Volkswagen would aspire to be something greater than Samsung. Does this mean after 2 years they stop pushing updates to the car and no longer support it? Tesla spent 20 billion to get where it is. By the time the other manufacturers spend 20 billion to catch up , Tesla will have spent another 20 billion. An article from Wolf Street Why the EV Battle Is Brutal for GM, Ford, Other Automakers https://wolfstreet.com/2021/02/18/why-the-ev-battle-is-brutal-for-gm-ford-other-automakers-tesla-cuts-prices-again-barriers-to-entry-vanish-new-entrants-muck-up-high-profit-pickup-truck-oligopoly/ https://wolfstreet.com/2021/02/18/why-the-ev-battle-is-bruta...
- oblio 6y agohttps://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN27T24O https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-idUSKBN2... VW has already invested about $10bn and will invest $86bn over the next 5 years.
- blinkingled 6y agoSamsung recently announced that it would offer four years of software support to most of its Galaxy smartphones and tablets. That's two or three major Android OS updates and security patches for an additional year. More than Pixels I think. That combined with very nice hardware makes Samsung a great choice for Android phones - they are the only ones remaining that make Android tablets as well.
- MrRiddle 6y ago10 out of those 20 billion is probably to get where most car companies are already at - to be a car company.
- ThePhysicist 6y agoVolkswagen is a large conglomerate, they own both "economy" brands like VW itself (which is already simplified since the VW brand also sells low-end luxury cars like the Phaeton) but also premium brands like Porsche (well actually they don't own them, it's complicated), Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini. If they leverage their technology platform correctly they could outcompete Tesla in many areas, though it remains to be seen if they are actually able to.
- dhosek 6y agoAlso Audi. The typeface that's part of the Volkswagen branding is called VAG rounded where VAG stands for Volkswagen Audi Group. Yes, I learn about corporate structures through typography.
- Hamuko 6y agoYou might want to learn about corporate structures some other way since VAG comes from Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft.
- Hamuko 6y ago>VW brand also sells low-end luxury cars like the Phaeton Wasn't Phaeton a massive flop?
- mavhc 6y agoTelsa plans to build 3TWh of battery production capacity in the same timeframe as VW plans to build 240GWh.
- marticode 6y agoTesla also planned to have a fleet of self driving taxis last year...
- Hamuko 6y agoTesla basically operates on their own version of Valve time (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time).
- mavhc 6y agoSee, their plans are already far ahead of the competition. But Tesla's battery plans are detailed and specific, 50% reduction in cost with the same battery chemistry by doing these 5 things. VW's is 50% reduction in cost by changing to Iron. Tesla's already using Iron in their standard range cars, there's just no comparison
- twobitshifter 6y agoI have been eyeing an EV as my next car. The company that I think is best positioned is actually Hyundai/Kia. And like Samsung, again it’s a Korean company. If you look at the Ioniq 5, this is exactly the type of design that I’d expect to see from Apple, more so than a Tesla. This may explain the discussion of a Hyundai apple partnership. Tesla has the worst parts of the Apple experience but they don’t yet have the quality and cohesion that makes people make that sacrifice and go all in on Apple. The ioniq 5 has displays for side mirrors, unabashedly modern headlamps, front and rear sliding seats and console, vehicle to grid able to power large appliances, augmented reality heads up display, automatic lane change, parking, and other self driving features, an instrument cluster display (headphone jack?), and best in class rapid charging. Hyundai rethought the car in the context of EVs and has done some useful things like extending the wheelbase to grow the size of the cabin. When you compare it to the egg like Tesla Model Y, I think the Hyundai shows a more cohesive design, offers more useful features and will be a better car overall. They also have real dealerships and the possibility of maintenance, and provide a warranty better than all other manufacturers. Tesla definitely has a much stronger brand than Hyundai, but that will change as more people see cars like the Ioniq 5 on the road.
- w0m 6y agoTesla went cheap with the 3/Y to hit time-to-market window. Singular screen/etc are cost/design savings as much as style I think. I debated a Y as a family car but look elsewhere as it was just a fugly Chonk. > type of design that I’d expect to see from Apple, more so than a Tesla I think the opposite here honestly. Apple tends to do more simple initial rollout; saying features are bad/worthless/dumb until they have them in the second or third gen where they claim better implementation. The biggest Tesla/Apple comparison to me is the network - Tesla SuperChargers are the walled-garden lockin. I bought an EV recently; and the ubiquity of SC's on my primary travel corridor pushed me to Tesla. I know there are lots of other charger networks out there; but Tesla's can use them; but the Ioniq likely won't be able to charge on the SC network for a fair while yet.
- Hamuko 6y ago>Tesla definitely has a much stronger brand than Hyundai, but that will change as more people see cars like the Ioniq 5 on the road. Why? It looks like yet another Volkswagen Golf on the outside. If it was actually something exciting like the Honda e, I might get it, but it looks like a very average hatchback.
- edhelas 6y agoEV, if they are individual is not a solution. Building a 2T machine to transport 95% of the time 80kg of human is the problem. Having fuel, lithium, hydrogen or something else will not solve the big problem: we need to put more people in cars and reduce the amount of cars that we need.
- dublinben 6y agoThe real EV revolution is e-bikes and other forms of micromobility. Already more e-bikes were sold in Germany last year than electric cars were sold in all of Europe.[0] In the Netherlands e-bikes outsold all cars last year, not just EVs.[1] [0]https://nitter.42l.fr/happy_roman/status/1369633949815803906 https://nitter.42l.fr/happy_roman/status/1369633949815803906 [1]https://nitter.42l.fr/oliverbruce/status/1370087719603298307 https://nitter.42l.fr/oliverbruce/status/1370087719603298307
- taf2 6y agoWouldn't this require Volkswagen to be the primary provider of battery tech? Isn't this what Telsa's already is doing, so wouldn't that mean Tesla is more like Apple+Samsung?
- nabla9 6y agoVolkswagen Group manufactures several brands: Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda, MAN, Scania, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini. Volkswagen will use the same EV platform in Volkswagen, Audi, SEAT and Škoda brands. Porsche makes their own. Volkswagen Tesla competes mostly with Volkswagen, Audi and Porche. Seat and Škoda will be cheaper models.
- xoa 6y agoSo in the ~50 posts written so far, the biggest word I don't see yet wrt Tesla is "supercharge", as-in their supercharging network. It remains an enormous Achilles' heel for competitors that really kind of puts a hard stop on a lot of other debate in my opinion. So far in the US at least it's still the case that everyone sort of seems to be assuming that eventually widespread generic charging networks will, like, just kind of happen on their own. And that probably will be true. Eventually. And I know there have been some haphazard plans to address it. But the fact on the ground remains that every other network seems to really suck in comparison to the infrastructure investment and quality-of-experience Tesla has made. Superchargers are starting to reach the point where they're reliably available nearly any time they're needed (ie., on trips beyond normal nightly charging). The experience of using them is convenient and pleasant. They're clean. They're not broken regularly. They work. Yeah Telsa's quality control issues are real. I agree that cars like the Ioniq 5 look very interesting in terms of interior design and QoL features that I care way, way more about than some theoretical top speed or acceleration or whatever that I'll never remotely touch in my life. But then inevitably when considering full ICE replacement (and cars in the $30k+ price class for most of us are going to be main vehicles not just-for-going-around-town) it comes back around to the whole actually-getting-electricity-into-the-vehicle-on-long-trips bit and woof. A few months back HN had a long thread on an HBR piece "Tesla’s charging stations left other manufacturers in the dust" [0], and it says it all. If other manufacturers can't get that sorted out it'll continue to be a major drag on their ambitions and give Tesla more runway to sort out their growing pains. Tesla is ultimately an electric infrastructure company along with cars, and I think that does matter at this stage of electrification. ---- 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25930253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25930253
- basch 6y agoThat seems backwards to me, this next generation coming out absolutely does fit the around town car. I am not sure what percentage of the population fits "couple, one commutes to work, one is at home, live around a metro" but having a EV for city driving, and a ICE for road trips would be a completely normal configuration for many families in America, and kicks the charger network question down the road for at least half a decade. If it can replace ONE ICE vehicle, and you still own another, range becomes a non-issue. Now its a question of cost, can they deliver the experience at $20k. A $20K car that is delivered now, and a charging network that comes later may not hinder people from dipping their feet into their first EV. Charge time is the part of the car that cant be upgraded later, network can. Tesla has what, 1000 charging stations across America, and Electrify America has 500?
- nickik 6y agoIts amazing to me how people always want to analyze everything in terms of the Smartphone market. This is nonsense. It simply doesn't make sense. They are completely different industries, completely different players and very different geopolitics. One is a tiny consumer product for your pocket that gets replaced every 2-3 years that is easy to transport, the other is a huge consumer product people often keep for 5-10 years that is hard to transport. Sure, both have Li-Ion battery but again its totally different. In a phone the battery is a small part of the overall price, while for a car its a huge factor in the overall price. Tesla is not like Apple, in many ways and Volkswagen is not like Samsung in many ways. Tesla is like Apple in some ways but not in others. The same for VW. The car market simply does not operate like the cellphone market, the role of software is different. The geopolitics are different, every 'Western' government that has a car industry is bent on defending it. Even outside of that, producing cars is such a massive capital intensive business that hits your cash-flow localization of production is basically a requirement for the biggest players. Tesla is amazingly successful and have a strategy of strong vertical integration. They have a tech future centered image promising fun, good performance and environmentally friendly. They are building up localized production of a few models that they want to sell in very high numbers globally. They are hell bent on increasing battery production and on solving self driving. Tesla will continue to grow at a quite rapid rate year over year and no matter if other EV come into the market that will likely not destroy Tesla growth anytime soon. Tesla is one of the largest costumers of all of the major battery companies and is turning itself into one of the largest battery producers as well. That alone is a huge advantage as with the continuing cost curves, it is likely almost all EV that can be produced, will be produced and will be sold. They have also smartly invested in charging network and are an omnipresent symbol of EV along all major routes in the developed world and they are expanding that network every day. VW is the first really big monster company that has fully realized not just that it needs to be done, but also that all the talk about how the car industry talk about how easy EV were and if they wanted Tesla would be crushed is not the case. Going into EV on large scale is breathtakingly difficult and VW has mobilized the whole company, made huge investment both in suppliers both now and future suppliers, they have transform their internal plans (of all their companies) and are trying to execute. They are doing quite a good job along most levels. VW and Tesla will both be large parts of the EV future, whatever will happen in terms of mobility service, self-driving and so on. There are open question for VW about how to transition such a large company but Tesla also have open question about continuing to execute a massive growth strategy. Both companies are set up for success if they continue to execute at a high level.