4 ms·

I'm in the UK so maybe it is different, but lately "woke" is anyone that is seen as an enemy of the far right. I am also in the UK and there is lots of hand-wr

I'm in the UK so maybe it is different, but lately "woke" is anyone that is seen as an enemy of the far right. I am also in the UK and there is lots of hand-wringing about "the extreme far right" but if you gently probe what people mean by "extreme far right" they mean "Brexit" or "not electing Jeremy Corbyn". I expect in a few months the term "ultra extreme far right" will enter the lexicon, and we'll keep adding superlatives as the term "right-wing" becomes more and more diluted and gradually encloses the entire population except for a few Momentum die-hards.

chriswarbo 6y ago
> if you gently probe what people mean by "extreme far right" they mean "Brexit" or "not electing Jeremy Corbyn" Bollocks. For starters, Brexit had support on the far-end of the left, who see the EU too liberal, e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/692f2578-fcbd-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d https://www.ft.com/content/692f2578-fcbd-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0... (RMT comes to mind since I work in that sector) I've certainly seen many outside the Momentum bubble being labelled 'Tory' (e.g. Lib Dems as 'yellow Tories', Blair/Starmer as 'red Tories', etc.), but you're speaking pure hyperbole. "Extreme far right" is reserved for the likes of NationalFront/BNP/UKIP/BritainFirst/BrexitParty/Reform/whatever they're calling themselves these days (plus their goons like EDL, DFLA, People's Front of Judea, Judean People's Front, etc.) It saddens me to see this sort of word-muddying (especially on HN), since it makes it easier to deflect this sort of crap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party_(1997%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia_in_the_UK_Conserv... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conserv... (Not forgetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_... to avoid the knee-jerks; although that's probably not dismissed as 'people call everything "extreme far right" these days')
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  the likes of NationalFront/BNP/UKIP By putting BNP and UKIP in the same list you have just proved my point. Is Rustie Lee "ultra extreme far right" in your opinion? https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/who-is-rustie-lee-meet-the-cast-of-the-real-marigold-hotel-series-two/ https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/who-is-rustie-le...
  - Jenk 6y ago
    The distance between UKIP and Far Right is not a wide gap: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/03/new-ukip-members-shifting-party-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/03/new-ukip-membe...
  - chriswarbo 6y ago
    > Is Rustie Lee "ultra extreme far right" in your opinion? No. In my opinion, Rustie Lee is not "ultra extreme far right". I don't see why you're asking though, since I didn't call UKIP "ultra extreme far right" either; or any one or thing, for that matter. So I don't know what point you're trying to make; that racists will always fall back on the "I have a black friend" defence? In any case, I deliberately avoided referring to specific individuals, since that often devolves into he-said/she-said accusations, and metaphysical circle-jerking about the 'true intent' of this or that. Tangentially, it's useful to the far right when discussions around them or their tactics devolve into such petty bickering, since it's a useful distraction towards easily denounced anecdata (hence putting their audience more at ease with the bigotry, and hence nudging the overton window a little more). After all, it's no coincidence that white supremacists deny the existence of systemic racism (unless it's against "whites", of course). Whilst bringing up a person (or, to reduce circle-jerking, the outcomes of their actions), is fair game in a discussion about people's actions; I would recommend against pivoting an existing discussion towards some person or other, as you've done, since that can help to entrench far right memes (e.g. that racism is only about individuals, etc.). With that in mind, I would point out that I am not the first to put UKIP in the same list as the BNP; UKIPs founder did the same (he cited the party's increasing racism and ties to the BNP as the reasons he left in the late 1990s).
- throwaway53453 6y ago
  Brexit party? Extreme far right?
  - chriswarbo 6y ago
    Yes, for a few years the Brexit Party was the I'mNotRacistBut Party. It looks like they've now been rumbled (hence becoming unelectable), so they're rebranding as Reform, which might last for another few years. The previous I'mNotRacistBut Party was UKIP (featuring Stephen Yaxley-Lennon as advisor for racially-charged issues, and denounced as racist 24 years ago by its own founder) Before that the BNP was scoring a few percent in general elections. And around and around it goes, all the way back to Mosley's blackshirts.
    - throwaways885 6y ago
      Nigel Farage left UKIP for that very reason. The Brexit party is fairly moderate and would be described as center-right, just shy of the conservatives.
      - chriswarbo 6y ago
        The Brexit Party was just a face-saving rebrand for UKIP. It didn't take long for the mask to start slipping, with the party's founder resigning after retweeting racist posts from far-right figures. Of course, Farage himself may denounce such things: > I set the party up, she was the administrator that got it set up. ( https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/former-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-says-his-brexit-party-wont-take-money-from-arron-banks https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/former-ukip... ) Which is an interesting contrast to his remarks when the party was being formed: > This was Catherine's idea entirely - but she has done this with my full knowledge and my full support. ( https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/the-new-ukip-nigel-farage-offers-full-support-for-another-brexit-party-37729406.html https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/the-new-ukip-nige... ) Friendly reminder that it's very easy, and very common, for racists to disavow their racism when it's expedient to do so (e.g. an extreme example https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY?t=1568 https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY?t=1568 )
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>I am also in the UK and there is lots of hand-wringing about "the extreme far right" but if you gently probe what people mean by "extreme far right" they mean "Brexit" or "not electing Jeremy Corbyn". Yeah, the funny thing about the UK is hearing from a country where the center-left party bombed an election precisely because it couldn't throw away its woke wing on two big "woke" issues (Brexit and antisemitism), and hearing that "anyone who's not far-right is woke". Well no. Keir Starmer won his place as head of Labour precisely by his willingness to reject further coalition with the "wokes", when Corbyn had been unwilling to really oppose them at all.
- Macha 6y ago
  It feels odd to portray the 2019 election as lost on "wokeism", or that Corbyn let that policy take over. By the end, Corbyn was the target of that crowd, being branded as an anti-semite for what amounts to "being too critical of Israel", and "being leader while being seen as too soft on others accused of anti-semitism". Aside from that, the 2019 election was really a Brexit election. Labour failed to pick a side, and the Conservatives were promising to get Brexit done and were early enough in the negotiations that they could promise it would be a soft brexit or maximum brexit depending on which crowd they thought would hear their comments.

chriswarbo 6y ago

> if you gently probe what people mean by "extreme far right" they mean "Brexit" or "not electing Jeremy Corbyn" Bollocks. For starters, Brexit had support on the far-end of the left, who see the EU too liberal, e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/692f2578-fcbd-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d https://www.ft.com/content/692f2578-fcbd-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0... (RMT comes to mind since I work in that sector) I've certainly seen many outside the Momentum bubble being labelled 'Tory' (e.g. Lib Dems as 'yellow Tories', Blair/Starmer as 'red Tories', etc.), but you're speaking pure hyperbole. "Extreme far right" is reserved for the likes of NationalFront/BNP/UKIP/BritainFirst/BrexitParty/Reform/whatever they're calling themselves these days (plus their goons like EDL, DFLA, People's Front of Judea, Judean People's Front, etc.) It saddens me to see this sort of word-muddying (especially on HN), since it makes it easier to deflect this sort of crap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party_(1997%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia_in_the_UK_Conserv... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conserv... (Not forgetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_... to avoid the knee-jerks; although that's probably not dismissed as 'people call everything "extreme far right" these days')

goatinaboat 6y ago
the likes of NationalFront/BNP/UKIP By putting BNP and UKIP in the same list you have just proved my point. Is Rustie Lee "ultra extreme far right" in your opinion? https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/who-is-rustie-lee-meet-the-cast-of-the-real-marigold-hotel-series-two/ https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/who-is-rustie-le...
- Jenk 6y ago
  The distance between UKIP and Far Right is not a wide gap: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/03/new-ukip-members-shifting-party-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/03/new-ukip-membe...
- chriswarbo 6y ago
  > Is Rustie Lee "ultra extreme far right" in your opinion? No. In my opinion, Rustie Lee is not "ultra extreme far right". I don't see why you're asking though, since I didn't call UKIP "ultra extreme far right" either; or any one or thing, for that matter. So I don't know what point you're trying to make; that racists will always fall back on the "I have a black friend" defence? In any case, I deliberately avoided referring to specific individuals, since that often devolves into he-said/she-said accusations, and metaphysical circle-jerking about the 'true intent' of this or that. Tangentially, it's useful to the far right when discussions around them or their tactics devolve into such petty bickering, since it's a useful distraction towards easily denounced anecdata (hence putting their audience more at ease with the bigotry, and hence nudging the overton window a little more). After all, it's no coincidence that white supremacists deny the existence of systemic racism (unless it's against "whites", of course). Whilst bringing up a person (or, to reduce circle-jerking, the outcomes of their actions), is fair game in a discussion about people's actions; I would recommend against pivoting an existing discussion towards some person or other, as you've done, since that can help to entrench far right memes (e.g. that racism is only about individuals, etc.). With that in mind, I would point out that I am not the first to put UKIP in the same list as the BNP; UKIPs founder did the same (he cited the party's increasing racism and ties to the BNP as the reasons he left in the late 1990s).
throwaway53453 6y ago
Brexit party? Extreme far right?
- chriswarbo 6y ago
  Yes, for a few years the Brexit Party was the I'mNotRacistBut Party. It looks like they've now been rumbled (hence becoming unelectable), so they're rebranding as Reform, which might last for another few years. The previous I'mNotRacistBut Party was UKIP (featuring Stephen Yaxley-Lennon as advisor for racially-charged issues, and denounced as racist 24 years ago by its own founder) Before that the BNP was scoring a few percent in general elections. And around and around it goes, all the way back to Mosley's blackshirts.
  - throwaways885 6y ago
    Nigel Farage left UKIP for that very reason. The Brexit party is fairly moderate and would be described as center-right, just shy of the conservatives.
    - chriswarbo 6y ago
      The Brexit Party was just a face-saving rebrand for UKIP. It didn't take long for the mask to start slipping, with the party's founder resigning after retweeting racist posts from far-right figures. Of course, Farage himself may denounce such things: > I set the party up, she was the administrator that got it set up. ( https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/former-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-says-his-brexit-party-wont-take-money-from-arron-banks https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/12/former-ukip... ) Which is an interesting contrast to his remarks when the party was being formed: > This was Catherine's idea entirely - but she has done this with my full knowledge and my full support. ( https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/the-new-ukip-nigel-farage-offers-full-support-for-another-brexit-party-37729406.html https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/the-new-ukip-nige... ) Friendly reminder that it's very easy, and very common, for racists to disavow their racism when it's expedient to do so (e.g. an extreme example https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY?t=1568 https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY?t=1568 )

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

>I am also in the UK and there is lots of hand-wringing about "the extreme far right" but if you gently probe what people mean by "extreme far right" they mean "Brexit" or "not electing Jeremy Corbyn". Yeah, the funny thing about the UK is hearing from a country where the center-left party bombed an election precisely because it couldn't throw away its woke wing on two big "woke" issues (Brexit and antisemitism), and hearing that "anyone who's not far-right is woke". Well no. Keir Starmer won his place as head of Labour precisely by his willingness to reject further coalition with the "wokes", when Corbyn had been unwilling to really oppose them at all.

Macha 6y ago
It feels odd to portray the 2019 election as lost on "wokeism", or that Corbyn let that policy take over. By the end, Corbyn was the target of that crowd, being branded as an anti-semite for what amounts to "being too critical of Israel", and "being leader while being seen as too soft on others accused of anti-semitism". Aside from that, the 2019 election was really a Brexit election. Labour failed to pick a side, and the Conservatives were promising to get Brexit done and were early enough in the negotiations that they could promise it would be a soft brexit or maximum brexit depending on which crowd they thought would hear their comments.