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The problem with the article and also with your comment is that we use one word “meditation” , while it is as diverse as any discipline. You do raise very good

by prox 6y ago

The problem with the article and also with your comment is that we use one word “meditation” , while it is as diverse as any discipline. You do raise very good points otherwise! Buddhist vipassana meditation is a long way from a vast range of yogic type meditations, or Sufi meditations and so forth. This clouds the discussion. As someone who has instructed meditation, our lineage has many safe guards to make it mild for the neophyte to pick up and practice safely. First off all, not by renouncing the world, but by being part of it. Second to never overdo it. Third, no more than three pranayama breaths when you start. The yoga sutras talk about sthira and sukha, effort and ease, which should be in balance. Basically you wouldn’t send someone up mount Everest untrained. Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind.

tugberkk 6y ago
This! I read Zen tradition and their meditation is sitting, calming and contemplating on things (depending on their school). The word "meditation" is used for almost everything and in different senses.
- pattt 6y ago
  Zen masters also rejected meditation as a means to the spiritual progress because there is no such thing in the tradition. Sitting quietly is more appropriate IMHO.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- krueger71 6y ago
  The first variant of Zen-meditation is often to count your breathing from 1 to 10 repeatedly. Sounds easy enough, but the mind starts to wander pretty quickly. If you get lost in your counting you just start over on 1 again.
  - yomly 6y ago
    Zen meditation seems to be the meditation I have experienced and practised. Both formally and informally. I am unsure this form could lead me to completely fall off the rails, but I also don't think I could sincerely practise it for more than a couple of days (with lots of rest) without just giving up from mental exhaustion. In the same way I wouldn't want to run a marathon tomorrow with no training (even though I have actually run one before). I suppose were I to subject myself to a week+ of meditation in my current state, I could conceivably "injure" myself if I were stubborn in my persistence. So maybe the warnings in this article aren't so unintuitive after all. Would love for someone knowledgeable to contrast this form to the other forms mentioned in this thread for someone who is open minded and not a complete outsider.
    - elbear 6y ago
      Even if you don't go on retreats and just have a regular daily practice, there could come a point where you experience unusual, unpleasant moments. The explanation might be difficult for you to accept, if you don't accept Buddhist philosophy (if you don't believe in enlightenment, basically). If you are a materialist, you don't believe there is anything else besides matter. You are just your body. Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system. There are several ways to avoid this. First, familiarise yourself with the Buddhist conceptual framework. Entertain the possibility that it is an accurate view of reality. The best book that I know for this is Dreams of light by Andrew Holecek. Second, look into practices that cultivate positive mental states. Some examples are forgiveness meditation and metta meditation. A relaxed and open mind can more easily hold difficult experiences. Third, take it slow and don't push yourself if you're having difficult experiences. Find a teacher or a community where you can ask for advice. One community that I recommend is /r/streamentry on Reddit. I hope meditation is fruitful for you. Let me know if you have questions.
      - eurasiantiger 6y ago
        Simply put, one is directly experiencing the fact that their sense-experiences are a construction and not the real thing.
- prox 6y ago
  We don’t use sitting for beginners (this is not zen btw) they can lie down. The worst thing that can happen is they fall asleep (which happens on a rare occasion, most stay present through certain cues we use) Sitting in half lotus or milder variations is hard for the chair accustomed person! Not to mention that lotus/half lotus can be tough, sometimes wrecking even, on the knees,hips or lowerback.
eternalban 6y ago
I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. To wit, your "Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind" underlines that fact. Zikr (remembrance of God's names and attributes) is highly recommended to all Muslims in the Qur'an, officially rated at being higher than prayer. It's not about "mind hacking". It is closer to Zen's "oxherding" purpose. > First off all, not by renouncing the world, but by being part of it. What is the world to me? What am I to the world? Truly, the example of this world and myself is that of a rider who seeks shade under a tree, then he moves on and leaves it behind. - Prophet Muhammad So there are the very subtle (but quite important) distinctions made by Muhammad (SAWS) here regarding the correct meaning of "detachment" and "world" and the mental and spiritual position of the 'Completed Human' regarding these matters. (Many in their misguided and mininformed zeal about "poverty" and "detachment" forget about that comforting "shade" he mentioned. "Seek shade under a tree". Mediate on that.)
- Arun2009 6y ago
  > I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and gradually, mentally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness). The idea being that it's easier to focus on a gross object at first to keep your mind steady, and later proceed to more subtle forms. Patanjali himself recommends that Om be chanted and its meaning reflected upon (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjalis-yoga-sutras/#sutra-128 https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...). The forms of meditations in dharmic traditions is quite bewildering. Patanjali himself recommends to concentrate on anything that you are comfortable with (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjalis-yoga-sutras/#sutra-139 https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).
  - eternalban 6y ago

by prox 6y ago

tugberkk 6y ago

This! I read Zen tradition and their meditation is sitting, calming and contemplating on things (depending on their school). The word "meditation" is used for almost everything and in different senses.

pattt 6y ago
Zen masters also rejected meditation as a means to the spiritual progress because there is no such thing in the tradition. Sitting quietly is more appropriate IMHO.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
krueger71 6y ago
The first variant of Zen-meditation is often to count your breathing from 1 to 10 repeatedly. Sounds easy enough, but the mind starts to wander pretty quickly. If you get lost in your counting you just start over on 1 again.
- yomly 6y ago
  Zen meditation seems to be the meditation I have experienced and practised. Both formally and informally. I am unsure this form could lead me to completely fall off the rails, but I also don't think I could sincerely practise it for more than a couple of days (with lots of rest) without just giving up from mental exhaustion. In the same way I wouldn't want to run a marathon tomorrow with no training (even though I have actually run one before). I suppose were I to subject myself to a week+ of meditation in my current state, I could conceivably "injure" myself if I were stubborn in my persistence. So maybe the warnings in this article aren't so unintuitive after all. Would love for someone knowledgeable to contrast this form to the other forms mentioned in this thread for someone who is open minded and not a complete outsider.
  - elbear 6y ago
    Even if you don't go on retreats and just have a regular daily practice, there could come a point where you experience unusual, unpleasant moments. The explanation might be difficult for you to accept, if you don't accept Buddhist philosophy (if you don't believe in enlightenment, basically). If you are a materialist, you don't believe there is anything else besides matter. You are just your body. Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system. There are several ways to avoid this. First, familiarise yourself with the Buddhist conceptual framework. Entertain the possibility that it is an accurate view of reality. The best book that I know for this is Dreams of light by Andrew Holecek. Second, look into practices that cultivate positive mental states. Some examples are forgiveness meditation and metta meditation. A relaxed and open mind can more easily hold difficult experiences. Third, take it slow and don't push yourself if you're having difficult experiences. Find a teacher or a community where you can ask for advice. One community that I recommend is /r/streamentry on Reddit. I hope meditation is fruitful for you. Let me know if you have questions.
    - eurasiantiger 6y ago
      Simply put, one is directly experiencing the fact that their sense-experiences are a construction and not the real thing.
prox 6y ago
We don’t use sitting for beginners (this is not zen btw) they can lie down. The worst thing that can happen is they fall asleep (which happens on a rare occasion, most stay present through certain cues we use) Sitting in half lotus or milder variations is hard for the chair accustomed person! Not to mention that lotus/half lotus can be tough, sometimes wrecking even, on the knees,hips or lowerback.

eternalban 6y ago

I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. To wit, your "Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind" underlines that fact. Zikr (remembrance of God's names and attributes) is highly recommended to all Muslims in the Qur'an, officially rated at being higher than prayer. It's not about "mind hacking". It is closer to Zen's "oxherding" purpose. > First off all, not by renouncing the world, but by being part of it. What is the world to me? What am I to the world? Truly, the example of this world and myself is that of a rider who seeks shade under a tree, then he moves on and leaves it behind. - Prophet Muhammad So there are the very subtle (but quite important) distinctions made by Muhammad (SAWS) here regarding the correct meaning of "detachment" and "world" and the mental and spiritual position of the 'Completed Human' regarding these matters. (Many in their misguided and mininformed zeal about "poverty" and "detachment" forget about that comforting "shade" he mentioned. "Seek shade under a tree". Mediate on that.)

Arun2009 6y ago
> I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and gradually, mentally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness). The idea being that it's easier to focus on a gross object at first to keep your mind steady, and later proceed to more subtle forms. Patanjali himself recommends that Om be chanted and its meaning reflected upon (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjalis-yoga-sutras/#sutra-128 https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...). The forms of meditations in dharmic traditions is quite bewildering. Patanjali himself recommends to concentrate on anything that you are comfortable with (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjalis-yoga-sutras/#sutra-139 https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).
- eternalban 6y ago