16 ms·

A call to improve London's lighting at night

85 points by edward 6y ago

te_chris 6y ago
The ones they've installed in Islington are awful. The old orange ones had a charm about them. The new ones are cold and harsh. I don't understand why such a cool temp was picked.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  I don't understand why such a cool temp was picked. Same as most government decisions. Some combination of "it was cheaper" and "I don't live there, it's for the plebs".
  - b3kart 6y ago
    I'd use the Hanlon's razor [1] here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
  - obitoo 6y ago
    Quite a few members of the government do live in Islington
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    Islington is the stereotypical place where MPs live/lived in London. Boris Johnson, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn, Emily Thornberry, Margaret Hodge …
    - darrenf 6y ago
      To be fair: • Corbyn has been an MP for Islington South since 1983 • Thornberry is MP for Islington North since 2005 • Margaret Hodge was on Islington council for 21 years So I would say it's somewhat unfair to accuse it of being a stereotypical choice for them. They live(d) amongst their electorate.
      - Veen 6y ago
        Yes, but there in nevertheless a stereotypical "Islington Set". - https://the-politics.wikia.org/wiki/Islington_set https://the-politics.wikia.org/wiki/Islington_set
- dylan604 6y ago
  This is what I don't understand. Our phones have night modes where it moves the color temp away from blues. The fact seeminly knowbody in charge of exterior lighting has figured out the same thing boggles me. Also, the abundance of cheap nighlights that are "bright white" instead of a calming "warm" as LEDs have taken to calling themselves.
  - mnw21cam 6y ago
    That bit is fairly easy to understand. Warm white (low colour temperature) LEDs aren't as efficient (they don't produce as bright a light for the same power input) as cold white (high colour temperature) lights. So if they just go down the options looking for the most efficient LED, that's what they will choose.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    To be fair, phones do this to not interfere with your sleep when you use it late. When it comes to street lights, there's an argument to be made that you do want to interfere with/defer the sleep of anyone who's walking/driving outside. The problem of course is collateral damage to people's houses where street lighting leaks into their windows, but assuming this is mitigated, I think street lighting that intentionally defers sleepiness is better.
    - pgalvin 6y ago
      The issue is such lighting (blue) also makes your night vision far worse. They’re actually much more dangerous and have increased road traffic accidents where they have been installed. Warmer lighting seems to be worse, as it does not illuminate the target area as brightly, but it ensures your eyes can see further outside of the target area. White LED street lamp makes the road super clear, but messes up your night vision. You don’t see the pedestrian about to step in the road, then you hit them. Could have been averted with warmer, orange lights.
      - dylan604 6y ago
        Same goes for those cars with the bright white headlights as well. they are absolutely blinding for on-coming traffic
fergie 6y ago
I actually quite like the gold/yellow light on "traditional" British street lights. Not only is it arguably more "natural" than whiter hued light, but I think it actually illuminates better. I live in a city in another country that uses white street lights, and I find the illumination to be a lot worse than that of sodium lighting
- mtalantikite 6y ago
  Yeah I agree. NYC went full on LED a few years back and I hate it. I have a lamppost right outside my apartment window and previously the light didn’t really bother me, now it’s this horrible cold LED that’s super bright flooding into my living room. I get that they’re cheaper to operate, but they throw shadows differently and have more blue wavelengths in them (in nyc they’re 4000 kelvin last I looked). It personally feels much less magical to me and 3-4 years in I still haven’t really gotten used to it.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Similar feelings in Chicago. It also makes me feel less safe at night. I get that the orange glow makes everything look muddy, color-wise, but it doesn't kill your night vision to the same extent as the bright white LEDs do. Sure, things directly under the streetlight are lit up like it's daytime, but I can't see for @$#% in between the streetlights or behind the bushes or whatever. I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency gains without quite so many of the downsides.
    - selectodude 6y ago
      >I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency gains without quite so many of the downsides. Flagstaff, Arizona did. There are some drawbacks, mostly that they simply don't get as bright. https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/how-flagstaff-arizona-switched-to-leds-without-giving-astronomers-a-headache/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/how-flagstaff-arizon...
globular-toast 6y ago
I wish we could just stop using street lights or at least turn them down significantly. I've done a lot of walking at night and a lot of the time you can see just fine. On darker nights (no moon) you can simply carry a torch. There's simply no need to floodlight entire streets all night long. There is a lot of research into the effects of light on sleep quality and it's bad. I have to put significant effort into blocking out street lights in my bedroom which means using blackout curtains even in winter. It's also bad for birds and other wildlife which rely on lighting to determine the time of day. I used to live on a street which turned the lights off completely at about midnight and it was so much better.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  Not everyone has 20/20 vison and may well have poor night vison.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  Plenty of people feel unsafe walking around poorly lit parts of a city at night.
  - dean177 6y ago
    The problem isn't the lighting. Its the city.
    - frereubu 6y ago
      One of those is a lot easier to remedy than the other.
- patall 6y ago
  That's most likely an age thing. I feel the same as you but then my grandma complains about those same dark lights that I find too bright. I also remember finding nights even brighter as a kid.
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  For context, a woman was kidnapped off the street and murdered fairly early in the evening in an area that's considered pretty quiet and safe in London recently.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
If they transition to white LED lights, it will be a big shame. White light disrupts our circadian rhythm, our sleep-wake cycle. It affects bugs, bats, and all sorts of wildlife. It would be much better for everyone if they moved to red street lights. https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/led/red-led-streetlights-make-uk-road-bat-friendly-2019-09/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/led/red-led-...
- esperent 6y ago
  I was totally with you up until the suggestion for red street lights. Besides the fact that it would make me feel like I was living in a horror film, I have a camping head torch with red and white lights (actually I've owned several over the years, from pricey to cheap) and the red light setting is close to useless. The only time I use it is if I wake up to step out of the tent and pee (it's great for not blinding me and waking me up) - but for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide enough light to see. Factor in that a big reason for street lighting is safety, and I don't think red lights will cut it, sadly, in spite of your valid points. Yellow lighting seems to be the happy median.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    > The only time I use [red light] is if I wake up to step out of the tent and pee > for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide enough light to see It sounds from your comment like red light is good enough for collision avoidance. Why else would light be needed from street lights? We all carry phones with flashlights nowadays.
    - esperent 6y ago
      I already mentioned in the parent comment - one of the main reasons for street lighting is safety, and a big part of that is making people feel less comfortable committing crimes because they think they might be recognized. Under red light, you are unlikely to be able to make out someone's face well enough to describe it later.
nathell 6y ago
This reminded me of Theydon Bois, a village just off Greater London on the Central Line. From Wikipedia: > A notable characteristic of the village is its almost complete absence of street lighting. Villagers have consistently voted against the installation of such lighting for decades, fearing that it would damage the traditional village ambience and require a rise in council tax. Only the approach to the tube station features a small number of lampposts.
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  Theydon is a funny old place. Good spot to enter the forest though.
- rwmj 6y ago
  It's the same in the village where we live. Everyone carries a torch (or in my case one of those pen-sized maglites). It may not be suitable for central London, but the system seems to work fine round here.
- frabbit 6y ago
  Sounds like heaven to me. I really dislike the absence of dark. Especially during the summer when it is hot and I would like to increase airflow by opening up the windows. The claim, in favor of such widespread lighting, is that it makes something "safer", but the evidence seems weak on that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-actually-happens-to-crime-when-the-lights-are-on-as-rick-perry-suggests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-...
  - frabbit 6y ago
    I came across this¹ paper which seems to claim that the provision of 600,000 lumen "lighting towers" in a public housing project reduces crime. It may be true, but the same could probably said for plans of unleashing packs of wild hyaenas during the night. All a bit too Panopticon for me. 1. https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/e95d751f7d91d0bcfeb209ddf6adcb4296868c12/store/cca92342e666b1ffb1c15be63b484e9b9687b57249dce44ad55ea92b1ec0/lights_04242016.pdf https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/e95d751f7d91d0bcf...
germinalphrase 6y ago
Is there anywhere that uses street lighting that is adaptive, i.e. after of period of no movement, the lights dim and then fade back up as a pedestrian/vehicle approaches? I’m sure the real answer is [less bright LEDs and force the community to adapt to dimmer night lighting] but, you know, safety
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dan-robertson 6y ago
Does this author want the minimum required amount of light pointing down and trying to avoid light pollution or do they want lots of lights hiding in bushes pointing up at building walls? It seems they change their mind part-way through the article.
Symbiote 6y ago
> An example that has often struck me, mainly by not being struck by them when walking around the City of London is how few lampposts there are in the City. Have you ever noticed that they’re almost non-existent? That’s because most of the street lighting is mounted on the buildings. That's one of the most significant differences between most parts of most British cities, and many other European cities. I doubt it will change, since it would require laying new wires and (probably) getting permissions from building owners, but I think the absence of street light poles makes a street look much nicer. (But without a pole to lean the bags against, where would Londoners leave their refuse on bin day?) Even better than building-mounted lights are lights suspended from wires strung between buildings, as in Copenhagen [1] (that is unusually heavy rain, the photographer was "lucky"). [1] https://teemusphoto.com/copenhagen-street-photography/ https://teemusphoto.com/copenhagen-street-photography/
- dijit 6y ago
  The "hanging between buildings" style of lights is absolutely trippy on a dark, windy evening while looking down a streat, it looks like the power is going on/off. I live in Malmo and they have the same way of mounting lights for the streets in the inner city.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Eh, i very much prefer fixed lampposts that aren't going anywhere
Taylor_OD 6y ago
A lot of people here are talking about how the warmer "yellow" lights feel nicer on the eyes or generally give more of a glow than a bright LED. I agree that the yellow lights are nicer to look at but a brighter LED does provide more illumination and can help people feel safer and actually be safer when traveling at night. There are always trade offs. Is safety for those who must commute late at night a fair trade off for lights that are less pleasant on the eyes?
- alistairSH 6y ago
  I'm sure there's a happy middle-ground. I get the impression many places are just tossing lowest-bid LEDs into existing lamps and calling it good enough. Somebody needs to drag the local politicians/town council to Home Depot (or the UK equivalent) and show them the warm-white vs bright-white vs other consumer LED bulbs. And if they still choose the bright-white, fire them/vote them out.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    More likely it works like this - someone "connected" finds cheapest possible LEDs one can get away with on alibaba, then the tender is setup so that unlikely anyone else will meet the criteria, money change hands and residents enjoy poor lighting... meanwhile council cries they have no money and another apartment is bought in Spain.
- stfp 6y ago
  Meanwhile traffic crashes and pedestrian deaths are up because people driving (even during the day) can't resist speeding and looking at their phones. Also meanwhile, cars are getting super bright headlights that actually make it harder to see at night in the city (signs and windows will reflect a lot more than people, you'll be blinded by oncoming cars...) My point being, there is no safety tradeoff being evaluated - we're getting super bright, super white LEDs because of economics (white/cool LEDs are cheaper) and a general fascination/desire to get the brightest thing possible.
  - DangerousPie 6y ago
wayanon 6y ago
I wonder if subsidised door cameras (and dashcams while we're at it) would also reduce crime. So sad for Sarah's family and friends!
animal_spirits 6y ago
I would encourage anyone here to watch the documentary "Saving the Dark" [0]. It discusses light pollution and the pros/cons about the new LED lights. [0] https://youtu.be/6fHxNn-FEnc https://youtu.be/6fHxNn-FEnc
Angostura 6y ago
No mentions of the carbon footprint reduction these LED allow: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/research/impact-bartlett/impact-our-research/reduction-uk-carbon-emissions-through-use-white-light https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/research/impact-bartlett/impa... In the UK in 2005, there were 8.12 million lighting points on the country’s streets using approximately 3.14 TWh of electricity, meaning CO2 emissions of 1.32 megatons. 6.31 million of these lighting points were streetlights. Bartlett research found that lower levels of brightness are required for white streetlights than for yellow sodium vapour lights. Switching led to energy savings of 30–40%.
- mattmanser 6y ago
  They're not pleasant to live around. They switched ours over a few years ago. Couple of things that bug me, they break your body out of it's natural rhythms, I find they really wake me up when I'm out late. They also mean everyone living near one has to go out and buy blackout curtains.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    Agreed - the white streetlights are worse overall. They're substantially dimmer, making safe driving more difficult and dark streets more scary. They are actually far less efficient than the classic orange sodium vapor lights when measured in terms of lumens/watt. I would guess they're white just because white LED's are now the cheapest colour, and whichever company was paid to do a study was given criteria to ensure they came out looking best. The study probably also took manufacturers claims of "100,000 hours lifespan" at face value, despite the fact half of them in my street have failed in under 2 years, which should have been detected in a small scale trial first... At least they don't PWM flash...
  - Angostura 6y ago
    I've had them in our place in the UK for a few years. A bit weird for the first few months, but soon got used to them. The benefits far outweigh the problems and it's one the of the more minor changes we are going to have to make to the way we live if we re going to have any hope of curtailing climate change.
jensus 6y ago
the UK's implementation and seemingly general view on lighting seems to be very different than to the rest of Europe. For one, it is quite minimal, the major highways and public parks are barely lit. And the lighting used is so orange and so little lumen that it leaves the eye struggling to either adjust for the reflection of the moon or the street light, straight up awful. I don't mind a balance between preserving traditional feel around pubs etc but we definitely need to have public paths adequately lit.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Somewhat related, a few local authorities in the UK do not light paths in many of their parks to discourage people using them. They say it increases safety. The logic is that it dissuades well, lets say, less than wholesome people, from congregating at night in the parks and also it dissuades normal people from using the places thinking they are safer if they are well lit but who might have more risk of bad things happening at night.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    I feel such attempts at 'logic' just apply people's biases and make a mess. Unless there is solid evidence they should not be withholding lighting. Some folks want to drink outdoors or chillin the park, and they will with or eithout light, but like this a lot more people will break their nose or leg
jedimastert 6y ago
I'm reminded of a Technology Connections video about what happened when his town switched from incandescent to LED stop lights <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8> Of course, while I was looking that up I found out he made a video about sodium vapour lights! <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40>
coding123 6y ago
Meanwhile the blackout curtain industry is boooooming.
jskrn 6y ago
Light higher than 5000k at night should be a crime. It is surgical and has already ruined many streets I used to enjoy walking and driving.
frereubu 6y ago
It's mentioned in passing in the article, but there are very serious concerns about the cool temperatures of modern LED street lights. This is a great podcast that goes into depth: https://www.bigbiology.org/season-3#episode53 https://www.bigbiology.org/season-3#episode53 One idea that particularly struck me was the point that flora and fauna generally have a long time to adapt to temperature changes (although those at each end of the spectrum will clearly suffer more), and large temperature fluctuations have happened in the past. But this rapid acceleration of cool streetlights is something that hasn't happened in earth's history before, and it's unclear how or if organisms will be able to adapt.
varispeed 6y ago
The current lights are great, they have their charm. Unfortunately councils just wait to have an excuse to spend our money (ideally on affiliated companies) on any vanity project they can get their hands on and then hike the tax.
lanevorockz 6y ago
Are we advocating for ultra bright streets because some people might be criminal. It's nice that we suddenly no longer treat criminals like guilty but only society. Can't wait until US and europe turn into third world countries.
HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
Maybe someday everyone will wear night vision goggles and their cars will drive themselves with similar cameras and radar. Then we can finally have the stars back.

85 points by edward 6y ago

The ones they've installed in Islington are awful. The old orange ones had a charm about them. The new ones are cold and harsh. I don't understand why such a cool temp was picked.

goatinaboat 6y ago
I don't understand why such a cool temp was picked. Same as most government decisions. Some combination of "it was cheaper" and "I don't live there, it's for the plebs".
- b3kart 6y ago
  I'd use the Hanlon's razor [1] here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
- obitoo 6y ago
  Quite a few members of the government do live in Islington
- Symbiote 6y ago
  Islington is the stereotypical place where MPs live/lived in London. Boris Johnson, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn, Emily Thornberry, Margaret Hodge …
  - darrenf 6y ago
    To be fair: • Corbyn has been an MP for Islington South since 1983 • Thornberry is MP for Islington North since 2005 • Margaret Hodge was on Islington council for 21 years So I would say it's somewhat unfair to accuse it of being a stereotypical choice for them. They live(d) amongst their electorate.
    - Veen 6y ago
      Yes, but there in nevertheless a stereotypical "Islington Set". - https://the-politics.wikia.org/wiki/Islington_set https://the-politics.wikia.org/wiki/Islington_set
dylan604 6y ago
This is what I don't understand. Our phones have night modes where it moves the color temp away from blues. The fact seeminly knowbody in charge of exterior lighting has figured out the same thing boggles me. Also, the abundance of cheap nighlights that are "bright white" instead of a calming "warm" as LEDs have taken to calling themselves.
- mnw21cam 6y ago
  That bit is fairly easy to understand. Warm white (low colour temperature) LEDs aren't as efficient (they don't produce as bright a light for the same power input) as cold white (high colour temperature) lights. So if they just go down the options looking for the most efficient LED, that's what they will choose.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  To be fair, phones do this to not interfere with your sleep when you use it late. When it comes to street lights, there's an argument to be made that you do want to interfere with/defer the sleep of anyone who's walking/driving outside. The problem of course is collateral damage to people's houses where street lighting leaks into their windows, but assuming this is mitigated, I think street lighting that intentionally defers sleepiness is better.
  - pgalvin 6y ago
    The issue is such lighting (blue) also makes your night vision far worse. They’re actually much more dangerous and have increased road traffic accidents where they have been installed. Warmer lighting seems to be worse, as it does not illuminate the target area as brightly, but it ensures your eyes can see further outside of the target area. White LED street lamp makes the road super clear, but messes up your night vision. You don’t see the pedestrian about to step in the road, then you hit them. Could have been averted with warmer, orange lights.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      Same goes for those cars with the bright white headlights as well. they are absolutely blinding for on-coming traffic

fergie 6y ago

I actually quite like the gold/yellow light on "traditional" British street lights. Not only is it arguably more "natural" than whiter hued light, but I think it actually illuminates better. I live in a city in another country that uses white street lights, and I find the illumination to be a lot worse than that of sodium lighting

mtalantikite 6y ago
Yeah I agree. NYC went full on LED a few years back and I hate it. I have a lamppost right outside my apartment window and previously the light didn’t really bother me, now it’s this horrible cold LED that’s super bright flooding into my living room. I get that they’re cheaper to operate, but they throw shadows differently and have more blue wavelengths in them (in nyc they’re 4000 kelvin last I looked). It personally feels much less magical to me and 3-4 years in I still haven’t really gotten used to it.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Similar feelings in Chicago. It also makes me feel less safe at night. I get that the orange glow makes everything look muddy, color-wise, but it doesn't kill your night vision to the same extent as the bright white LEDs do. Sure, things directly under the streetlight are lit up like it's daytime, but I can't see for @$#% in between the streetlights or behind the bushes or whatever. I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency gains without quite so many of the downsides.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    >I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency gains without quite so many of the downsides. Flagstaff, Arizona did. There are some drawbacks, mostly that they simply don't get as bright. https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/how-flagstaff-arizona-switched-to-leds-without-giving-astronomers-a-headache/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/how-flagstaff-arizon...

globular-toast 6y ago

I wish we could just stop using street lights or at least turn them down significantly. I've done a lot of walking at night and a lot of the time you can see just fine. On darker nights (no moon) you can simply carry a torch. There's simply no need to floodlight entire streets all night long. There is a lot of research into the effects of light on sleep quality and it's bad. I have to put significant effort into blocking out street lights in my bedroom which means using blackout curtains even in winter. It's also bad for birds and other wildlife which rely on lighting to determine the time of day. I used to live on a street which turned the lights off completely at about midnight and it was so much better.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Not everyone has 20/20 vison and may well have poor night vison.
dan-robertson 6y ago
Plenty of people feel unsafe walking around poorly lit parts of a city at night.
- dean177 6y ago
  The problem isn't the lighting. Its the city.
  - frereubu 6y ago
    One of those is a lot easier to remedy than the other.
patall 6y ago
That's most likely an age thing. I feel the same as you but then my grandma complains about those same dark lights that I find too bright. I also remember finding nights even brighter as a kid.
dkdbejwi383 6y ago
For context, a woman was kidnapped off the street and murdered fairly early in the evening in an area that's considered pretty quiet and safe in London recently.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

If they transition to white LED lights, it will be a big shame. White light disrupts our circadian rhythm, our sleep-wake cycle. It affects bugs, bats, and all sorts of wildlife. It would be much better for everyone if they moved to red street lights. https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/led/red-led-streetlights-make-uk-road-bat-friendly-2019-09/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/led/red-led-...

esperent 6y ago
I was totally with you up until the suggestion for red street lights. Besides the fact that it would make me feel like I was living in a horror film, I have a camping head torch with red and white lights (actually I've owned several over the years, from pricey to cheap) and the red light setting is close to useless. The only time I use it is if I wake up to step out of the tent and pee (it's great for not blinding me and waking me up) - but for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide enough light to see. Factor in that a big reason for street lighting is safety, and I don't think red lights will cut it, sadly, in spite of your valid points. Yellow lighting seems to be the happy median.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  > The only time I use [red light] is if I wake up to step out of the tent and pee > for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide enough light to see It sounds from your comment like red light is good enough for collision avoidance. Why else would light be needed from street lights? We all carry phones with flashlights nowadays.
  - esperent 6y ago
    I already mentioned in the parent comment - one of the main reasons for street lighting is safety, and a big part of that is making people feel less comfortable committing crimes because they think they might be recognized. Under red light, you are unlikely to be able to make out someone's face well enough to describe it later.

nathell 6y ago

This reminded me of Theydon Bois, a village just off Greater London on the Central Line. From Wikipedia: > A notable characteristic of the village is its almost complete absence of street lighting. Villagers have consistently voted against the installation of such lighting for decades, fearing that it would damage the traditional village ambience and require a rise in council tax. Only the approach to the tube station features a small number of lampposts.

dkdbejwi383 6y ago
Theydon is a funny old place. Good spot to enter the forest though.
rwmj 6y ago
It's the same in the village where we live. Everyone carries a torch (or in my case one of those pen-sized maglites). It may not be suitable for central London, but the system seems to work fine round here.
frabbit 6y ago
Sounds like heaven to me. I really dislike the absence of dark. Especially during the summer when it is hot and I would like to increase airflow by opening up the windows. The claim, in favor of such widespread lighting, is that it makes something "safer", but the evidence seems weak on that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-actually-happens-to-crime-when-the-lights-are-on-as-rick-perry-suggests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-...
- frabbit 6y ago
  I came across this¹ paper which seems to claim that the provision of 600,000 lumen "lighting towers" in a public housing project reduces crime. It may be true, but the same could probably said for plans of unleashing packs of wild hyaenas during the night. All a bit too Panopticon for me. 1. https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/e95d751f7d91d0bcfeb209ddf6adcb4296868c12/store/cca92342e666b1ffb1c15be63b484e9b9687b57249dce44ad55ea92b1ec0/lights_04242016.pdf https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/e95d751f7d91d0bcf...

germinalphrase 6y ago

Is there anywhere that uses street lighting that is adaptive, i.e. after of period of no movement, the lights dim and then fade back up as a pedestrian/vehicle approaches? I’m sure the real answer is [less bright LEDs and force the community to adapt to dimmer night lighting] but, you know, safety

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dan-robertson 6y ago

Does this author want the minimum required amount of light pointing down and trying to avoid light pollution or do they want lots of lights hiding in bushes pointing up at building walls? It seems they change their mind part-way through the article.

Symbiote 6y ago

> An example that has often struck me, mainly by not being struck by them when walking around the City of London is how few lampposts there are in the City. Have you ever noticed that they’re almost non-existent? That’s because most of the street lighting is mounted on the buildings. That's one of the most significant differences between most parts of most British cities, and many other European cities. I doubt it will change, since it would require laying new wires and (probably) getting permissions from building owners, but I think the absence of street light poles makes a street look much nicer. (But without a pole to lean the bags against, where would Londoners leave their refuse on bin day?) Even better than building-mounted lights are lights suspended from wires strung between buildings, as in Copenhagen [1] (that is unusually heavy rain, the photographer was "lucky"). [1] https://teemusphoto.com/copenhagen-street-photography/ https://teemusphoto.com/copenhagen-street-photography/

dijit 6y ago
The "hanging between buildings" style of lights is absolutely trippy on a dark, windy evening while looking down a streat, it looks like the power is going on/off. I live in Malmo and they have the same way of mounting lights for the streets in the inner city.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Eh, i very much prefer fixed lampposts that aren't going anywhere

Taylor_OD 6y ago

A lot of people here are talking about how the warmer "yellow" lights feel nicer on the eyes or generally give more of a glow than a bright LED. I agree that the yellow lights are nicer to look at but a brighter LED does provide more illumination and can help people feel safer and actually be safer when traveling at night. There are always trade offs. Is safety for those who must commute late at night a fair trade off for lights that are less pleasant on the eyes?

alistairSH 6y ago
I'm sure there's a happy middle-ground. I get the impression many places are just tossing lowest-bid LEDs into existing lamps and calling it good enough. Somebody needs to drag the local politicians/town council to Home Depot (or the UK equivalent) and show them the warm-white vs bright-white vs other consumer LED bulbs. And if they still choose the bright-white, fire them/vote them out.
- varispeed 6y ago
  More likely it works like this - someone "connected" finds cheapest possible LEDs one can get away with on alibaba, then the tender is setup so that unlikely anyone else will meet the criteria, money change hands and residents enjoy poor lighting... meanwhile council cries they have no money and another apartment is bought in Spain.
stfp 6y ago
Meanwhile traffic crashes and pedestrian deaths are up because people driving (even during the day) can't resist speeding and looking at their phones. Also meanwhile, cars are getting super bright headlights that actually make it harder to see at night in the city (signs and windows will reflect a lot more than people, you'll be blinded by oncoming cars...) My point being, there is no safety tradeoff being evaluated - we're getting super bright, super white LEDs because of economics (white/cool LEDs are cheaper) and a general fascination/desire to get the brightest thing possible.
- DangerousPie 6y ago

wayanon 6y ago

I wonder if subsidised door cameras (and dashcams while we're at it) would also reduce crime. So sad for Sarah's family and friends!

animal_spirits 6y ago

I would encourage anyone here to watch the documentary "Saving the Dark" [0]. It discusses light pollution and the pros/cons about the new LED lights. [0] https://youtu.be/6fHxNn-FEnc https://youtu.be/6fHxNn-FEnc

Angostura 6y ago

No mentions of the carbon footprint reduction these LED allow: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/research/impact-bartlett/impact-our-research/reduction-uk-carbon-emissions-through-use-white-light https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/research/impact-bartlett/impa... In the UK in 2005, there were 8.12 million lighting points on the country’s streets using approximately 3.14 TWh of electricity, meaning CO2 emissions of 1.32 megatons. 6.31 million of these lighting points were streetlights. Bartlett research found that lower levels of brightness are required for white streetlights than for yellow sodium vapour lights. Switching led to energy savings of 30–40%.

mattmanser 6y ago
They're not pleasant to live around. They switched ours over a few years ago. Couple of things that bug me, they break your body out of it's natural rhythms, I find they really wake me up when I'm out late. They also mean everyone living near one has to go out and buy blackout curtains.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  Agreed - the white streetlights are worse overall. They're substantially dimmer, making safe driving more difficult and dark streets more scary. They are actually far less efficient than the classic orange sodium vapor lights when measured in terms of lumens/watt. I would guess they're white just because white LED's are now the cheapest colour, and whichever company was paid to do a study was given criteria to ensure they came out looking best. The study probably also took manufacturers claims of "100,000 hours lifespan" at face value, despite the fact half of them in my street have failed in under 2 years, which should have been detected in a small scale trial first... At least they don't PWM flash...
- Angostura 6y ago
  I've had them in our place in the UK for a few years. A bit weird for the first few months, but soon got used to them. The benefits far outweigh the problems and it's one the of the more minor changes we are going to have to make to the way we live if we re going to have any hope of curtailing climate change.

jensus 6y ago

the UK's implementation and seemingly general view on lighting seems to be very different than to the rest of Europe. For one, it is quite minimal, the major highways and public parks are barely lit. And the lighting used is so orange and so little lumen that it leaves the eye struggling to either adjust for the reflection of the moon or the street light, straight up awful. I don't mind a balance between preserving traditional feel around pubs etc but we definitely need to have public paths adequately lit.

thinkingemote 6y ago
Somewhat related, a few local authorities in the UK do not light paths in many of their parks to discourage people using them. They say it increases safety. The logic is that it dissuades well, lets say, less than wholesome people, from congregating at night in the parks and also it dissuades normal people from using the places thinking they are safer if they are well lit but who might have more risk of bad things happening at night.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  I feel such attempts at 'logic' just apply people's biases and make a mess. Unless there is solid evidence they should not be withholding lighting. Some folks want to drink outdoors or chillin the park, and they will with or eithout light, but like this a lot more people will break their nose or leg

jedimastert 6y ago

I'm reminded of a Technology Connections video about what happened when his town switched from incandescent to LED stop lights <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8> Of course, while I was looking that up I found out he made a video about sodium vapour lights! <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40>

coding123 6y ago

Meanwhile the blackout curtain industry is boooooming.

jskrn 6y ago

Light higher than 5000k at night should be a crime. It is surgical and has already ruined many streets I used to enjoy walking and driving.

frereubu 6y ago

It's mentioned in passing in the article, but there are very serious concerns about the cool temperatures of modern LED street lights. This is a great podcast that goes into depth: https://www.bigbiology.org/season-3#episode53 https://www.bigbiology.org/season-3#episode53 One idea that particularly struck me was the point that flora and fauna generally have a long time to adapt to temperature changes (although those at each end of the spectrum will clearly suffer more), and large temperature fluctuations have happened in the past. But this rapid acceleration of cool streetlights is something that hasn't happened in earth's history before, and it's unclear how or if organisms will be able to adapt.

varispeed 6y ago

The current lights are great, they have their charm. Unfortunately councils just wait to have an excuse to spend our money (ideally on affiliated companies) on any vanity project they can get their hands on and then hike the tax.

lanevorockz 6y ago

Are we advocating for ultra bright streets because some people might be criminal. It's nice that we suddenly no longer treat criminals like guilty but only society. Can't wait until US and europe turn into third world countries.

HomeDeLaPot 6y ago

Maybe someday everyone will wear night vision goggles and their cars will drive themselves with similar cameras and radar. Then we can finally have the stars back.