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This sounds like the kind of role a lot of good engineers get promoted to unwillingly/unknowingly, how do you avoid being assigned this role and remain a valued

This sounds like the kind of role a lot of good engineers get promoted to unwillingly/unknowingly, how do you avoid being assigned this role and remain a valued engineer once you have experience?

ochronus 6y ago
Yup, that's a common career path mistake companies do - making the only possible 'next step' for senior engineers to become managers. If your company doesn't have a strong career path for senior ICs, you should push for one
- boring_twenties 6y ago
  Honest question -- why does there need to be a "next step?" It's been over a decade since I've worked at a company with managers. However, it was common for the top programmers to make more money than their managers there.
  - elcomet 6y ago
    That's the "next step". In some companies the only way to earn top money is becoming a manager.
  - galkk 6y ago
    Because of title inflation, for example.
  - vasco 6y ago
    Because some places have titles and so all places need to have titles, lest they be branded as not "helping you grow".
  - ochronus 6y ago
    The need comes from the folks feeling stuck - it doesn't "have" to be that way. I've also had engineers making more money than me and looking at their impact it was well justified - the question is not only money but the sense of growth and acknowledgement of growth from the company's side - and there's a clear need for that. A bigger salary is just one (pretty volatile) form of it.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    It's been over a decade since I've worked at a company with managers. However, it was common for the top programmers to make more money than their managers there. Programming and managing are completely different jobs that accomplish different things for the organisation, but they are typically arranged in a top-down fashion, the manager has power over the programmer. A manager's job is to do the function of interacting with the wider organisation in order to determine the best way for the programmer to spend his time, in effect it's a research job, then he presents the programmer with the results of his research and they both agree that the most value can be added to the organisation by working on bug X today instead of feature Y. But what actually happens is the manager says "do this, because I said so, and if you don't I'll block your next raise". Or so-called engineering managers cherry-pick the most rewarding work for themselves and assign the unfulfilling work to subordinates as punishment. That's deeply dysfunctional but it's what happens when you have a group who wants to do real work, and another group who has plenty of time on their hands for full-time politicking.
    - ochronus 6y ago
      There are companies where managers are truly in a supporting function. I'm not here to advertise but my last two jobs were like that.
      - goatinaboat 6y ago
        here are companies where managers are truly in a supporting function. I'm not here to advertise but my last two jobs were like that Unless programmers have equal knowledge of and input into their managers salary as their manager does in their's, there's still that fundamental top-down structure.
      - mtberatwork 6y ago
        I am doubtful. If the managers are writing the performance reviews, they are not in a supporting function at all. They are the arbiters of the subordinate's success in the company and that is a vertical relationship.
      - Pasorrijer 6y ago
- taurath 6y ago
  The problem is when it comes time to choose a direction, its gonna be you vs the person with N direct reports who can make it happen. I've seen companies give up on this and turn principles into directors - that hasn't worked out well either. It seems to be a pretty bad problem with the standard hierarchical way businesses are set up. I've heard Goog does a bit better with a bit more autonomy so people can gravitate towards good ideas, but have also heard plenty of downsides. Maybe a new way to structure employees could come about?
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
Become a freelancer.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Negotiate, I guess; on the one side as a good engineer you want the recognition (and pay) that goes with it, so for yourself you should ask for a raise or promotion to a title like idk, "senior principal engineer". But for the leadership skills, you should push to hire a dedicated manager type, who works alongside you and does the people management part.
SomeHacker44 6y ago
My company bifurcates people managers and ICs in engineering roles. Each level has both starting at tech lead/manager. Next is principal/director. Even VP has two tracks, though I have met only one IC VP. SVP and up are always people managers. AFAIK comp is the same. I help my senior engineers and leads understand their preferences and hit the path they want.
loloquwowndueo 6y ago
Say “no” when offered the role, if you don’t want it :) Keep the Peter principle in mind always and recognize when a promotion would actually “diminish your value to the organization” - that’s a great way to sell it so you’re not seen as just passing on the offer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
buro9 6y ago
> how do you avoid being assigned this role and remain a valued engineer once you have experience? Change company. If the only progression for an engineer is to become a manager, change company to one that allows an engineer to continue growing, continue learning, and continue to earn more. Some signs a company will force you to become a manager to progress: 1. Artificial ceilings: "We have Principal and Staff Engineers, but those are defined as having had impact outside the company so you cannot become one as your work only has impact internally" - effectively these titles are only offered to strategic hires and it's not attainable from inside the company 2. Managers paid more than the top engineers. 3. Title inflation as this stifles actual growth and learning and tends to limit overall earnings forcing you to look to change your career to find new challenges and earnings even though you want to be an IC and continue to do engineering. Unless a company truly has a clear progression for ICs with learning, growth and earnings all factored in, and that the IC progression goes all the way to near the top of the company, and it's achievable within the company... then you're going to reach the point that you'll look at the manager career and think it's the only way forward. It isn't, and it's not even forward it's to the side and backwards a bit (you reset your career and start at the lowest level of a new track). If you can't progress as an engineer and wish to... change company.
- nojito 6y ago
  Managers should get paid more than engineers.
  - buro9 6y ago
    I am a manager, and I disagree. The ranges overlap: an early career engineer will definitely be paid less than an early career manager... but a top engineer should be able to earn more than the vast majority (if not all) of the managers.
    - nojito 6y ago
      Not true. The idea that an IC is going to out contribute a top manager who oversees dozens of lower tier ICs doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A good manager is a productivity multiplier which is why the top companies spend an arm and leg training up their managers. The real issue is that is much easier to manage a group of top engineers than it is to manage a group of engineers who think that they are top engineers.

This sounds like the kind of role a lot of good engineers get promoted to unwillingly/unknowingly, how do you avoid being assigned this role and remain a valued engineer once you have experience?

ochronus 6y ago

Yup, that's a common career path mistake companies do - making the only possible 'next step' for senior engineers to become managers. If your company doesn't have a strong career path for senior ICs, you should push for one

boring_twenties 6y ago
Honest question -- why does there need to be a "next step?" It's been over a decade since I've worked at a company with managers. However, it was common for the top programmers to make more money than their managers there.
- elcomet 6y ago
  That's the "next step". In some companies the only way to earn top money is becoming a manager.
- galkk 6y ago
  Because of title inflation, for example.
- vasco 6y ago
  Because some places have titles and so all places need to have titles, lest they be branded as not "helping you grow".
- ochronus 6y ago
  The need comes from the folks feeling stuck - it doesn't "have" to be that way. I've also had engineers making more money than me and looking at their impact it was well justified - the question is not only money but the sense of growth and acknowledgement of growth from the company's side - and there's a clear need for that. A bigger salary is just one (pretty volatile) form of it.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  It's been over a decade since I've worked at a company with managers. However, it was common for the top programmers to make more money than their managers there. Programming and managing are completely different jobs that accomplish different things for the organisation, but they are typically arranged in a top-down fashion, the manager has power over the programmer. A manager's job is to do the function of interacting with the wider organisation in order to determine the best way for the programmer to spend his time, in effect it's a research job, then he presents the programmer with the results of his research and they both agree that the most value can be added to the organisation by working on bug X today instead of feature Y. But what actually happens is the manager says "do this, because I said so, and if you don't I'll block your next raise". Or so-called engineering managers cherry-pick the most rewarding work for themselves and assign the unfulfilling work to subordinates as punishment. That's deeply dysfunctional but it's what happens when you have a group who wants to do real work, and another group who has plenty of time on their hands for full-time politicking.
  - ochronus 6y ago
    There are companies where managers are truly in a supporting function. I'm not here to advertise but my last two jobs were like that.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      here are companies where managers are truly in a supporting function. I'm not here to advertise but my last two jobs were like that Unless programmers have equal knowledge of and input into their managers salary as their manager does in their's, there's still that fundamental top-down structure.
    - mtberatwork 6y ago
      I am doubtful. If the managers are writing the performance reviews, they are not in a supporting function at all. They are the arbiters of the subordinate's success in the company and that is a vertical relationship.
    - Pasorrijer 6y ago
taurath 6y ago
The problem is when it comes time to choose a direction, its gonna be you vs the person with N direct reports who can make it happen. I've seen companies give up on this and turn principles into directors - that hasn't worked out well either. It seems to be a pretty bad problem with the standard hierarchical way businesses are set up. I've heard Goog does a bit better with a bit more autonomy so people can gravitate towards good ideas, but have also heard plenty of downsides. Maybe a new way to structure employees could come about?

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago

Become a freelancer.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

Negotiate, I guess; on the one side as a good engineer you want the recognition (and pay) that goes with it, so for yourself you should ask for a raise or promotion to a title like idk, "senior principal engineer". But for the leadership skills, you should push to hire a dedicated manager type, who works alongside you and does the people management part.

SomeHacker44 6y ago

My company bifurcates people managers and ICs in engineering roles. Each level has both starting at tech lead/manager. Next is principal/director. Even VP has two tracks, though I have met only one IC VP. SVP and up are always people managers. AFAIK comp is the same. I help my senior engineers and leads understand their preferences and hit the path they want.

loloquwowndueo 6y ago

Say “no” when offered the role, if you don’t want it :) Keep the Peter principle in mind always and recognize when a promotion would actually “diminish your value to the organization” - that’s a great way to sell it so you’re not seen as just passing on the offer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

buro9 6y ago

> how do you avoid being assigned this role and remain a valued engineer once you have experience? Change company. If the only progression for an engineer is to become a manager, change company to one that allows an engineer to continue growing, continue learning, and continue to earn more. Some signs a company will force you to become a manager to progress: 1. Artificial ceilings: "We have Principal and Staff Engineers, but those are defined as having had impact outside the company so you cannot become one as your work only has impact internally" - effectively these titles are only offered to strategic hires and it's not attainable from inside the company 2. Managers paid more than the top engineers. 3. Title inflation as this stifles actual growth and learning and tends to limit overall earnings forcing you to look to change your career to find new challenges and earnings even though you want to be an IC and continue to do engineering. Unless a company truly has a clear progression for ICs with learning, growth and earnings all factored in, and that the IC progression goes all the way to near the top of the company, and it's achievable within the company... then you're going to reach the point that you'll look at the manager career and think it's the only way forward. It isn't, and it's not even forward it's to the side and backwards a bit (you reset your career and start at the lowest level of a new track). If you can't progress as an engineer and wish to... change company.

nojito 6y ago
Managers should get paid more than engineers.
- buro9 6y ago
  I am a manager, and I disagree. The ranges overlap: an early career engineer will definitely be paid less than an early career manager... but a top engineer should be able to earn more than the vast majority (if not all) of the managers.
  - nojito 6y ago
    Not true. The idea that an IC is going to out contribute a top manager who oversees dozens of lower tier ICs doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A good manager is a productivity multiplier which is why the top companies spend an arm and leg training up their managers. The real issue is that is much easier to manage a group of top engineers than it is to manage a group of engineers who think that they are top engineers.