10 ms·

Why Google Earth Can't Show You Israel

197 points by amduser29 15y ago

dmerfield 15y ago
This raises a really interesting privacy question, the answer to which I do not know.
yuvadam 15y ago
This is not new, and has been known for many years. Interestingly enough, this policy is awkward - borderline useless - for two reasons. First, any satellite imagery, at any resolution, can be purchased on the private market, for the right price. Maybe not from the US, but it's not like the US is the only country that collects satellite imagery. But there is a more interesting aspect to this story. Israel does allow publishing high-resolution imagery of its territories, given that they have been censored. Thus, you get ridiculous images such as a huge park in the middle of Tel Aviv, where clearly the Kirya [1] usually stands. The fun starts once you diff a censored map with a publicly available one, even if it's low-res. Even an untrained eye can easily spot places that someone does not want you to look at. (I have been toying with the idea of mining satellite imagery and running image diffs between censored and uncensored versions of the same area.) Ridiculous, considering that most secret places blend in perfectly with their surroundings. Had they not been censored, no one would notice these facilities. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya
- joebadmo 15y ago
  Julian Sanchez called this the Redactor's Dilemma: http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-dilemma/ http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-dilemm...
gryzzly 15y ago
Well, this article isn't accurate at all, you can see Israel on Google Maps in a great resolution, but you don't have API. Must be outdated or something.
- darklajid 15y ago
  Right, the title/tone is misleading. I think (at least that's what I commented on) that the discussion is about details/zoom levels that you're used to from other places. Try to zoom in and decide if a beach is worth visiting. It seems that the last couple of zoom levels are missing. What I'd like to understand (but cannot check - I'm clueless, just curious) is if the image quality degrades more the 'hotter' the area is.
  - yuvadam 15y ago
    Well, most of the area is pretty low resolution. You can try zooming in on sensitive areas, probably the best bet would be on Dimona (alleged nuclear reactor), but I think you'll get the same low resolution pretty much anywhere.
- mdasen 15y ago
  I think there's a clear difference in resolution. Here's Rothschild Street in Tel Aviv: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=tel+aviv&aq=&sll=31.740577,35.110073&sspn=0.085257,0.15192&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tel+Aviv,+Israel&ll=32.062437,34.770098&spn=0.002655,0.004748&t=h&z=18 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38.... Everything is incredibly blurry. Compare that to Beacon Hill in Boston: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Beacon+Hill,+Boston,+Suffolk,+Massachusetts&gl=us&ll=42.358142,-71.064578&spn=0.001165,0.002374&t=h&z=19 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8.... That's at the same zoom level and the Boston image is clear. Sure, you can make things out in the Tel Aviv map, but it's very blurry. The Boston map has a crispness to it. Plus, the Boston map can be zoomed in another level. The Tel Aviv map tells you "we are sorry, but we don't have imagery at this zoom level for this region."
  - mikle 15y ago
    This is outrageous! Rothschild st was built when fuzzy edges was the IN thing in architecture. Of course they look outdated now! In all seriousness though, on the Android I can't get a detailed view of Israel from any app the charts my movement (like biking or running tracking apps). It annoys me greatly. Not to mention our really secret places are not military bases.
darklajid 15y ago
Living in TLV for a week now. This annoys me, for various practical reasons: I became (maybe a bad thing?) dependent on decent, free and _readable_ maps. Maps are easy to get by, but I am used to get a decent preview of places I'm interested in. I'd love to explore the country virtually and check out places of interest, possible targets for a day off or a weekend trip. Pretty certainly someone, somewhere thought that this would be necessary and a good idea, but I fail to grasp the reasons. It seems as if the 'privacy' gained by censoring/prohibiting this kind of imagery is borderline security by obscurity. It's not like anyone really interested in these maps couldn't get them from other places - or travel the country and look for places of interest. It just annoys the laymen - like me. What am I missing?
- vbtemp 15y ago
  I lived in TLV last summer. It annoyed me dramatically as well. It was impossible to check out the neighborhood on google maps before I moved in (as well as other points of interest that I planned on going to)
  - radagaisus 15y ago
    There are several online maps from local websites, e.g. http://maps.walla.co.il http://maps.walla.co.il
- netcan 15y ago
  It's probably overdone and largely useless but not quite as ridiculous as it seems. Sure, high res maps are probably theoretically available from some source and country with an army and an intelligence apparatus will have access to these. Recently, Israel attracts fire from groups ranging from a couple guys and a $200 mortar tube to sub national militias with limited support from a handful of real countries. I imagine these groups, much like startups, appreciate the cheap & easy 80/20 solutions that something like google earth offers. I remember years ago hearing stories about rocket squads using Israeli radio reports of rockets striking (for example) 1km west of Kibbutz Dan to adjust their aim.
  - 15y ago
nivertech 15y ago
I have no idea why some people complain. Suppose Google Maps had "erase" feature. The same people who would "erase" Israel from the map, would complain, that they need higher resolution images ;)
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
tibbon 15y ago
How is this not a violation of the first amendment? They aren't US government buildings (which still exist on the map, just some things are occasionally blurred). Why as an American company can't I take pictures of anything I want from the sky and post them online? Furthermore, its just silly in an international market. Thinking that this will make images of Israel go away to protect them is just silly. Useless legislation is useless and a waste of taxpayer time and money. We don't do this for any other country/ally. As a non-religious American, I quite honestly don't understand why we have such a relationship with Israel as it yields us zero benefit and many losses.
- VB6_Foreverr 15y ago
  He who pays the piper calls the tune. Who has the money to pay the piper in the USA?
- dimitar 15y ago
  The US treats Israel like an intelligence/military base in the Middle East. Why wouldn't you support your soldiers? A bonus is that Israel is still a sovereign nation and if it for example bombs Syrian nuclear reactors, the United States has zero responsibility. Which can leave the US to pursue détente with any country it likes, regardless the Israel protest. A nations power is measured not only in its military capabilities but in its allies. The US has many, many allies but not that many loyal ones especially in the Middle East. The benefits are way too many, but very few of them are international-PR-related. Except of course domestically, which is much, much more important to any politician.
  - ComputerGuru 15y ago
    But that's exactly what the parent was asking — how are you defining "loyal?" His question was, what are we getting out of it that would cost us more if we didn't do it ourselves.
    - dimitar 15y ago
      Well, does it have unwavering strategic, political, cultural, ideological interest to continue the relationship, whatever the government? In contrast the surrounding allies always warn that the relationship or balance of power may change if the current government goes out of power. The state department may lose some hours of sleep when there is a change in power in Egypt or in Yemen, but does it have to when the same happens in Israel?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
antihero 15y ago
I'm in the UK and loading up Google Earth I get pretty good resolution images of Gaza and Israel...
themoah 15y ago
Dude, i surve in Israeli army - communication corps , c41. There are lots of "top-secret" bases that are available on google maps & earth. The difference is that you need to know where to look for them , others won't be recognized as army bases ( e.g. shabak or mossad buildings )
eurohacker 15y ago
there have been made calculations by economists how much this so-called ally Israel has cost to Americans , its trillions http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
creativeone 15y ago
Who cares about google maps? I use waze, a free gps that has all Israeli roads and hotelier listed, plus, if there is a new road, users can create it into the map. I also have an iPhone app that tells me about different shops and entertainment and gas stations etc that are around. I use google maps (map view, not satellite) multiple times a week. I use the walking directions, and find the directions and the estimated time to be highly accurate. It would be a nice perk for satellite imagery, but that doesn't really hurt my usage of google maps in israel. It would be really nice too for google street view, but I'm not crying. Why don't we let israel manage it's satellite imagery how it wants. For a country constantly at war over since the writing of its declaration of independence, it seems only prudent to hinder the spread of even mediocre quality intelligence gathering tools.
Tsagadai 15y ago
For a good comparison look at the map quality of South Korea near the border and North Korea over the border. The maps of North Korea are higher resolution and completely uncensored. Occasionally, when I am wandering along in South Korea with my GPS on I find something censored on Google maps. Why are the images of the Palestinian territories not available in in higher resolutions? It doesn't seem like a problem to allow clearer images of other non-US friendly nations.

197 points by amduser29 15y ago

This raises a really interesting privacy question, the answer to which I do not know.

This is not new, and has been known for many years. Interestingly enough, this policy is awkward - borderline useless - for two reasons. First, any satellite imagery, at any resolution, can be purchased on the private market, for the right price. Maybe not from the US, but it's not like the US is the only country that collects satellite imagery. But there is a more interesting aspect to this story. Israel does allow publishing high-resolution imagery of its territories, given that they have been censored. Thus, you get ridiculous images such as a huge park in the middle of Tel Aviv, where clearly the Kirya [1] usually stands. The fun starts once you diff a censored map with a publicly available one, even if it's low-res. Even an untrained eye can easily spot places that someone does not want you to look at. (I have been toying with the idea of mining satellite imagery and running image diffs between censored and uncensored versions of the same area.) Ridiculous, considering that most secret places blend in perfectly with their surroundings. Had they not been censored, no one would notice these facilities. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya

joebadmo 15y ago
Julian Sanchez called this the Redactor's Dilemma: http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-dilemma/ http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/12/08/the-redactors-dilemm...

gryzzly 15y ago

Well, this article isn't accurate at all, you can see Israel on Google Maps in a great resolution, but you don't have API. Must be outdated or something.

darklajid 15y ago
Right, the title/tone is misleading. I think (at least that's what I commented on) that the discussion is about details/zoom levels that you're used to from other places. Try to zoom in and decide if a beach is worth visiting. It seems that the last couple of zoom levels are missing. What I'd like to understand (but cannot check - I'm clueless, just curious) is if the image quality degrades more the 'hotter' the area is.
- yuvadam 15y ago
  Well, most of the area is pretty low resolution. You can try zooming in on sensitive areas, probably the best bet would be on Dimona (alleged nuclear reactor), but I think you'll get the same low resolution pretty much anywhere.
mdasen 15y ago
I think there's a clear difference in resolution. Here's Rothschild Street in Tel Aviv: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=tel+aviv&aq=&sll=31.740577,35.110073&sspn=0.085257,0.15192&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tel+Aviv,+Israel&ll=32.062437,34.770098&spn=0.002655,0.004748&t=h&z=18 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38.... Everything is incredibly blurry. Compare that to Beacon Hill in Boston: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Beacon+Hill,+Boston,+Suffolk,+Massachusetts&gl=us&ll=42.358142,-71.064578&spn=0.001165,0.002374&t=h&z=19 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=beacon+hill+boston&ie=UTF8.... That's at the same zoom level and the Boston image is clear. Sure, you can make things out in the Tel Aviv map, but it's very blurry. The Boston map has a crispness to it. Plus, the Boston map can be zoomed in another level. The Tel Aviv map tells you "we are sorry, but we don't have imagery at this zoom level for this region."
- mikle 15y ago
  This is outrageous! Rothschild st was built when fuzzy edges was the IN thing in architecture. Of course they look outdated now! In all seriousness though, on the Android I can't get a detailed view of Israel from any app the charts my movement (like biking or running tracking apps). It annoys me greatly. Not to mention our really secret places are not military bases.

darklajid 15y ago

Living in TLV for a week now. This annoys me, for various practical reasons: I became (maybe a bad thing?) dependent on decent, free and _readable_ maps. Maps are easy to get by, but I am used to get a decent preview of places I'm interested in. I'd love to explore the country virtually and check out places of interest, possible targets for a day off or a weekend trip. Pretty certainly someone, somewhere thought that this would be necessary and a good idea, but I fail to grasp the reasons. It seems as if the 'privacy' gained by censoring/prohibiting this kind of imagery is borderline security by obscurity. It's not like anyone really interested in these maps couldn't get them from other places - or travel the country and look for places of interest. It just annoys the laymen - like me. What am I missing?

vbtemp 15y ago
I lived in TLV last summer. It annoyed me dramatically as well. It was impossible to check out the neighborhood on google maps before I moved in (as well as other points of interest that I planned on going to)
- radagaisus 15y ago
  There are several online maps from local websites, e.g. http://maps.walla.co.il http://maps.walla.co.il
netcan 15y ago
It's probably overdone and largely useless but not quite as ridiculous as it seems. Sure, high res maps are probably theoretically available from some source and country with an army and an intelligence apparatus will have access to these. Recently, Israel attracts fire from groups ranging from a couple guys and a $200 mortar tube to sub national militias with limited support from a handful of real countries. I imagine these groups, much like startups, appreciate the cheap & easy 80/20 solutions that something like google earth offers. I remember years ago hearing stories about rocket squads using Israeli radio reports of rockets striking (for example) 1km west of Kibbutz Dan to adjust their aim.
- 15y ago

nivertech 15y ago

I have no idea why some people complain. Suppose Google Maps had "erase" feature. The same people who would "erase" Israel from the map, would complain, that they need higher resolution images ;)

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

tibbon 15y ago

How is this not a violation of the first amendment? They aren't US government buildings (which still exist on the map, just some things are occasionally blurred). Why as an American company can't I take pictures of anything I want from the sky and post them online? Furthermore, its just silly in an international market. Thinking that this will make images of Israel go away to protect them is just silly. Useless legislation is useless and a waste of taxpayer time and money. We don't do this for any other country/ally. As a non-religious American, I quite honestly don't understand why we have such a relationship with Israel as it yields us zero benefit and many losses.

VB6_Foreverr 15y ago
He who pays the piper calls the tune. Who has the money to pay the piper in the USA?
dimitar 15y ago
The US treats Israel like an intelligence/military base in the Middle East. Why wouldn't you support your soldiers? A bonus is that Israel is still a sovereign nation and if it for example bombs Syrian nuclear reactors, the United States has zero responsibility. Which can leave the US to pursue détente with any country it likes, regardless the Israel protest. A nations power is measured not only in its military capabilities but in its allies. The US has many, many allies but not that many loyal ones especially in the Middle East. The benefits are way too many, but very few of them are international-PR-related. Except of course domestically, which is much, much more important to any politician.
- ComputerGuru 15y ago
  But that's exactly what the parent was asking — how are you defining "loyal?" His question was, what are we getting out of it that would cost us more if we didn't do it ourselves.
  - dimitar 15y ago
    Well, does it have unwavering strategic, political, cultural, ideological interest to continue the relationship, whatever the government? In contrast the surrounding allies always warn that the relationship or balance of power may change if the current government goes out of power. The state department may lose some hours of sleep when there is a change in power in Egypt or in Yemen, but does it have to when the same happens in Israel?

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

antihero 15y ago

I'm in the UK and loading up Google Earth I get pretty good resolution images of Gaza and Israel...

themoah 15y ago

Dude, i surve in Israeli army - communication corps , c41. There are lots of "top-secret" bases that are available on google maps & earth. The difference is that you need to know where to look for them , others won't be recognized as army bases ( e.g. shabak or mossad buildings )

eurohacker 15y ago

there have been made calculations by economists how much this so-called ally Israel has cost to Americans , its trillions http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

creativeone 15y ago

Who cares about google maps? I use waze, a free gps that has all Israeli roads and hotelier listed, plus, if there is a new road, users can create it into the map. I also have an iPhone app that tells me about different shops and entertainment and gas stations etc that are around. I use google maps (map view, not satellite) multiple times a week. I use the walking directions, and find the directions and the estimated time to be highly accurate. It would be a nice perk for satellite imagery, but that doesn't really hurt my usage of google maps in israel. It would be really nice too for google street view, but I'm not crying. Why don't we let israel manage it's satellite imagery how it wants. For a country constantly at war over since the writing of its declaration of independence, it seems only prudent to hinder the spread of even mediocre quality intelligence gathering tools.

Tsagadai 15y ago

For a good comparison look at the map quality of South Korea near the border and North Korea over the border. The maps of North Korea are higher resolution and completely uncensored. Occasionally, when I am wandering along in South Korea with my GPS on I find something censored on Google maps. Why are the images of the Palestinian territories not available in in higher resolutions? It doesn't seem like a problem to allow clearer images of other non-US friendly nations.