4 ms·

IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails. (Streetcars are

by notJim 6y ago

IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails. (Streetcars are not usually grade-separated.) I learned recently that part of why streetcars have been in vogue is that the Obama administration made a big push for them in order to have some visible progress on their transit plans.

sofixa 6y ago
> IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails With much bigger capacity and also faster. Even BRT with multiple buses one after the other has lower capacity, and unless all buses are electric, also pollutes more and makes more noise.
throw0101a 6y ago
> IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails. The value of a streetcar or a bus depends on the volume of passengers that are served. The more people, the more a streetcar (maybe) makes sense. At some point you have so many buses and so many drives (salaries, benefits, 401k/pensions) that the main cost on the line becomes people and not equipment. (More buses also need more mechanics, etc.) There is a range of average daily ridership where buses, bus rapid transit (single/double lanes), light rail, and heavy rail each make sense. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_per_hour_per_direction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_per_hour_per_direct... One should also keep in mind that good transit is about networks: a random route here or there is not useful. Vox made a video outlining this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDZtBRTyeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDZtBRTyeI * https://www.vox.com/videos/21529609/usa-public-transit-trains-buses-cars https://www.vox.com/videos/21529609/usa-public-transit-train...
iggldiggl 6y ago
> Streetcars are not usually grade-separated. Although I'd argue that unless you really need (or reasonably expect to need) the capacity of a full-scale subway(-like) line, demanding 100 % grade-separation might again falls under the "overdesign" point: Properly done signal priority and dedicated lanes where necessary can get you quite far without requiring you to tunnel/elevate all the way or build a bridge/underpass at each crossing street.
- notJim 6y ago
  Right, my point is you can do all this with a bus or BRT without needing the extra expense of using a streetcar.

by notJim 6y ago

sofixa 6y ago

> IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails With much bigger capacity and also faster. Even BRT with multiple buses one after the other has lower capacity, and unless all buses are electric, also pollutes more and makes more noise.

throw0101a 6y ago

> IMO streetcars in general are a pretty bad investment, as they are generally just a way of making a bus, but more expensive and stuck on rails. The value of a streetcar or a bus depends on the volume of passengers that are served. The more people, the more a streetcar (maybe) makes sense. At some point you have so many buses and so many drives (salaries, benefits, 401k/pensions) that the main cost on the line becomes people and not equipment. (More buses also need more mechanics, etc.) There is a range of average daily ridership where buses, bus rapid transit (single/double lanes), light rail, and heavy rail each make sense. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_per_hour_per_direction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_per_hour_per_direct... One should also keep in mind that good transit is about networks: a random route here or there is not useful. Vox made a video outlining this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDZtBRTyeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDZtBRTyeI * https://www.vox.com/videos/21529609/usa-public-transit-trains-buses-cars https://www.vox.com/videos/21529609/usa-public-transit-train...

iggldiggl 6y ago

> Streetcars are not usually grade-separated. Although I'd argue that unless you really need (or reasonably expect to need) the capacity of a full-scale subway(-like) line, demanding 100 % grade-separation might again falls under the "overdesign" point: Properly done signal priority and dedicated lanes where necessary can get you quite far without requiring you to tunnel/elevate all the way or build a bridge/underpass at each crossing street.

notJim 6y ago
Right, my point is you can do all this with a bus or BRT without needing the extra expense of using a streetcar.