6 ms·

I expect any device with general purpose computing capabilities to allow me to use those capabilities anyway I want. Especially I'm spending $1000 USD on the t

I expect any device with general purpose computing capabilities to allow me to use those capabilities anyway I want. Especially I'm spending $1000 USD on the thing.

comex 6y ago
What if the way you want is using the App Store's payment infrastructure?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Then that person can use the app store, and another person using their own iPhone could use some other method. Apple allowing users a choice wouldn't prevent them from choosing the App Store.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- anfilt 6y ago
  Then dont do business with that developer/company. You cant force a seller/company to accept every form of payment or payment processor. Especially one that takes 30% cut, and says they cant sell their goods themself to people (aka sideload). Not only does such system seem insane for a normal payment processor. It also effects you the purchaser in multiple ways. Since to use this payment system you cant make the choice to buy anything but through them. It also prevents in you from fully owning your own hardware. So the end results they force both developers and users through them. I find the effect of not allowing side-loading even more egregious because once apple sells the phone they no longer own it.
  - Google234 6y ago
    Yes you can. Try and sell a product at any store and demand they take a 0% cut
    - anfilt 6y ago
      Sigh I don't think you understand. The comment I was responding to said they dont want to use other payment processors. Walk into a store and demand that they use a payment processor you like especially ones with such onerous requirements. As for your comment normal producers of goods can sell directly or choose what stores to stock their product. However, here a developer has no choice but apple and the same goes for a payment processor. Its all because the hardware is locked down infringing on the property rights of device owners. Apple does not even own the hardware after they sell it. Apple can run their store like they want however the only reason is its a problem is because they infringe on the device owners rights, and they cant run software unless apple allows that software to run on the device.
      - Terretta 6y ago
        This is backwards. Apple built in the shelf space, the device is a passport like a CostCo card, and users buy because membership has its privileges.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      Well it actually costs the store money to sell a product, for one thing
google234123 6y ago
If you want completely general purpose computing capabilities then don't buy an Iphone. I don't expect my fridge to allow me to execute arbitrary code on it's ARM cpu.
- jasonjayr 6y ago
  Right, I get that. But that argument is tired. These 'smart phones' have been advertised as PC Replacements. "Run your software, your games, your choice." To many people it is the only computer they will personally own. They are computers with cellular modems and other useful sensors built in. That's it. There are magnitudes of people with the know how to operate these things and take full responsibility for their operation and maintenance. There are scores of people who could more easily creatively use these devices in ways we can't even imagine now. Everyday these vendors prevent free and clear operation of this type of hardware, they hamper innovation, in favor of short term profits. And also; to reply specifically regarding the fridge, to be honest, I actually do want to run my own code there: CPU based controller boards in appliances tend to be obnoxiously prices for replacement. The cost of the parts for a controller board + related software can't possibly be more than a RPi computer and a bunch of relays. The fridge's computer's code is probably running a software based PID controller, that could be sourced anywhere else, and perhaps even software optimized to take advantage of better energy usage algorithms. So again, locked down hardware, short term profits. "$300 part bad on a $800 fridge, just buy a new one and throw the old one away"
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Your fridge doesn't have an ARM CPU comparable to a desktop these days though does it?
  - google234123 6y ago
    I don't know. It's probably comparable to something from not too long ago though.
Terretta 6y ago
Device evolved into a seamless hardware software experience, it’s no longer for hobbyists, much like transistor radios and Radio Shack. Find a new proto-appliance to hack and shape, or buy from a different philosophy vendor.
- jasonjayr 6y ago
  But this philosophy of not being able to control your own hardware, be it computers, appliances, vehicles, or otherwise, is harmful to society. Locking down devices without an escape hatch enables rent seeking and hampers innovation and creativity. I understand your point of view, but also understand that the future where the only open hardware is expensive one-off specialty stuff is rapidly approaching. Either through legal means, or limited availability, companies are posturing themselves to be the gatekeepers + rent seekers, and will hamper new 'out-of-the-box' ideas.

I expect any device with general purpose computing capabilities to allow me to use those capabilities anyway I want. Especially I'm spending $1000 USD on the thing.

comex 6y ago

What if the way you want is using the App Store's payment infrastructure?

ineedasername 6y ago
Then that person can use the app store, and another person using their own iPhone could use some other method. Apple allowing users a choice wouldn't prevent them from choosing the App Store.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
anfilt 6y ago
Then dont do business with that developer/company. You cant force a seller/company to accept every form of payment or payment processor. Especially one that takes 30% cut, and says they cant sell their goods themself to people (aka sideload). Not only does such system seem insane for a normal payment processor. It also effects you the purchaser in multiple ways. Since to use this payment system you cant make the choice to buy anything but through them. It also prevents in you from fully owning your own hardware. So the end results they force both developers and users through them. I find the effect of not allowing side-loading even more egregious because once apple sells the phone they no longer own it.
- Google234 6y ago
  Yes you can. Try and sell a product at any store and demand they take a 0% cut
  - anfilt 6y ago
    Sigh I don't think you understand. The comment I was responding to said they dont want to use other payment processors. Walk into a store and demand that they use a payment processor you like especially ones with such onerous requirements. As for your comment normal producers of goods can sell directly or choose what stores to stock their product. However, here a developer has no choice but apple and the same goes for a payment processor. Its all because the hardware is locked down infringing on the property rights of device owners. Apple does not even own the hardware after they sell it. Apple can run their store like they want however the only reason is its a problem is because they infringe on the device owners rights, and they cant run software unless apple allows that software to run on the device.
    - Terretta 6y ago
      This is backwards. Apple built in the shelf space, the device is a passport like a CostCo card, and users buy because membership has its privileges.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Well it actually costs the store money to sell a product, for one thing

google234123 6y ago

If you want completely general purpose computing capabilities then don't buy an Iphone. I don't expect my fridge to allow me to execute arbitrary code on it's ARM cpu.

jasonjayr 6y ago
Right, I get that. But that argument is tired. These 'smart phones' have been advertised as PC Replacements. "Run your software, your games, your choice." To many people it is the only computer they will personally own. They are computers with cellular modems and other useful sensors built in. That's it. There are magnitudes of people with the know how to operate these things and take full responsibility for their operation and maintenance. There are scores of people who could more easily creatively use these devices in ways we can't even imagine now. Everyday these vendors prevent free and clear operation of this type of hardware, they hamper innovation, in favor of short term profits. And also; to reply specifically regarding the fridge, to be honest, I actually do want to run my own code there: CPU based controller boards in appliances tend to be obnoxiously prices for replacement. The cost of the parts for a controller board + related software can't possibly be more than a RPi computer and a bunch of relays. The fridge's computer's code is probably running a software based PID controller, that could be sourced anywhere else, and perhaps even software optimized to take advantage of better energy usage algorithms. So again, locked down hardware, short term profits. "$300 part bad on a $800 fridge, just buy a new one and throw the old one away"
mhh__ 6y ago
Your fridge doesn't have an ARM CPU comparable to a desktop these days though does it?
- google234123 6y ago
  I don't know. It's probably comparable to something from not too long ago though.

Terretta 6y ago

Device evolved into a seamless hardware software experience, it’s no longer for hobbyists, much like transistor radios and Radio Shack. Find a new proto-appliance to hack and shape, or buy from a different philosophy vendor.

jasonjayr 6y ago
But this philosophy of not being able to control your own hardware, be it computers, appliances, vehicles, or otherwise, is harmful to society. Locking down devices without an escape hatch enables rent seeking and hampers innovation and creativity. I understand your point of view, but also understand that the future where the only open hardware is expensive one-off specialty stuff is rapidly approaching. Either through legal means, or limited availability, companies are posturing themselves to be the gatekeepers + rent seekers, and will hamper new 'out-of-the-box' ideas.