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This was the entrypoint to Firefox for millions of people. Unlike today, back then Firefox had a clearly expressive value proposition: Use this! It has tabs! I

This was the entrypoint to Firefox for millions of people. Unlike today, back then Firefox had a clearly expressive value proposition: Use this! It has tabs! It will change how you browse the web! Now the only value proposition is some wishy-washy privacy stuff that is much harder to sell people on, even if it's in their best interest.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
> Now the only value proposition is some wishy-washy privacy stuff that is much harder to sell people on, even if it's in their best interest. They'll still use Chrome or Edge/IE, but will use NordVPN or ExpressVPN after seeing their favorite YouTuber claim that the VPN protects their data and gives them privacy... ...while still not using an ad blocker, which makes the VPN almost entirely worthless from a privacy perspective. At most, it blocks your ISP from seeing what you're doing.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > At most, it blocks your ISP from seeing what you're doing. In fairness, that is a nontrivial privacy win for a decent number of people.
- weird-eye-issue 6y ago
  That's not totally fair. They also hide your IP from sites you access. So if somebody sent me a link to an IP logger and I clicked it, they would not know what city or state I actually live in, for example.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    True. You're definitely right there.
namrog84 6y ago
I believe opera had tabs for a while before Firefox. It was one of the main reasons I think I used opera for a good long while.
- sangnoir 6y ago
  You are correct - Opera had tabs way before Firefox, and Opera had a full mail client as well without feeling bloated or slow.
  - core-questions 6y ago
    I strongly believe that if Opera had had a cool name, it would have been a real contender. People don't like operas, they're boring and stodgy.
    - tinus_hn 6y ago
      Opera was a paid option. It was doomed from the start.
      - cpach 6y ago
        IIRC the rendering engine wasn’t that great either at that time.
        rasz 6y ago
        Opera Presto was the fastest browser (and js engine) in the world at its prime.
        NetOpWibby 6y ago
        Opera was the best
        danielscrubs 6y ago
        Still remember the mouse gestures to zip around the pages. What a fun time.
        bmn__ 6y ago
safetytrick 6y ago
To me, the value proposition is still tabs. I have hundreds open at a time. Once or twice a month I will cleanup hundreds of windows and tabs. I've created habits to open up most everything in new tabs and new "projects" in new windows. I think I do this as a self-remedy for my ADHD, I am likely to allow an interruption to disrupt me but I do need to close the loop on whatever I was working on before an interruption. A window or set of open tabs is enough of a reminder to help me close the loop.
- wheybags 6y ago
  I use a vertical tab extension, and with that I regularly get to > 1k tabs.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    Different strokes for different folks but what on earth do you people do on 1000 or even 100 tabs? I have a handful of sites I regularly go to and maybe 50 that I visit more than occasionally. They’re all bookmarked. When I’m done browsing I close the window. What state are you preserving keeping everything open in a tab?
    - wheybags 6y ago
      Often it will be documentation + stack overflow results. It can be handy to just leave that stuff open, because then you can find it easily. I do purge all tabs every now and again, but when there's no downside to leaving them open, they can build up for a month or so.
    - duke_core 6y ago
      What are those 50 sites you visit? I have like 4 which I visit on a daily basis (reddit/4chan/hckrnews/youtube)
    - unionpivo 6y ago
      For instance, i go to frontpage of HN and open in new tabs the stories and comments that interest me. Its not uncommon for 15 stories with 15 comments sections (thats 30 tabs already), Then I sometimes, open links from comments, or Wikipedia etc. Today i have more than 50 tabs open just starting from HN. Some stories when i read I close, but sometimes when I think i need to reread or save for later. After the week i usually have around 150+ tabs that i have left for later, I do the triage and I either save to my notes (like interesting, os dev articles, or rust or postgre optimization tips ...) or close. And thats just for HN.
skinkestek 6y ago
Which is just another reason why it is so awfully frustrating flr me that they won't fix their extension apis: I fully believe the extensions were really a huge part of Firefox' moat.
gh-throw 6y ago
Phoenix/Firebird was sold first through its incredible speed, compared to IE, plus popup blocking. The tabs were a nice bonus but the other two were the features that got all of us pushing the browser on every friend and relative who'd let us, even if they'd never use/understand tabbed browsing (some don't, to this day).
BeetleB 6y ago
Extensions were the other 10x thing with Firefox. Even now browsing the web without them is torture.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

> Now the only value proposition is some wishy-washy privacy stuff that is much harder to sell people on, even if it's in their best interest. They'll still use Chrome or Edge/IE, but will use NordVPN or ExpressVPN after seeing their favorite YouTuber claim that the VPN protects their data and gives them privacy... ...while still not using an ad blocker, which makes the VPN almost entirely worthless from a privacy perspective. At most, it blocks your ISP from seeing what you're doing.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
> At most, it blocks your ISP from seeing what you're doing. In fairness, that is a nontrivial privacy win for a decent number of people.
weird-eye-issue 6y ago
That's not totally fair. They also hide your IP from sites you access. So if somebody sent me a link to an IP logger and I clicked it, they would not know what city or state I actually live in, for example.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  True. You're definitely right there.

namrog84 6y ago

I believe opera had tabs for a while before Firefox. It was one of the main reasons I think I used opera for a good long while.

sangnoir 6y ago
You are correct - Opera had tabs way before Firefox, and Opera had a full mail client as well without feeling bloated or slow.
- core-questions 6y ago
  I strongly believe that if Opera had had a cool name, it would have been a real contender. People don't like operas, they're boring and stodgy.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Opera was a paid option. It was doomed from the start.
    - cpach 6y ago
      IIRC the rendering engine wasn’t that great either at that time.
      - rasz 6y ago
        Opera Presto was the fastest browser (and js engine) in the world at its prime.
        NetOpWibby 6y ago
        Opera was the best
        danielscrubs 6y ago
        Still remember the mouse gestures to zip around the pages. What a fun time.
        bmn__ 6y ago

safetytrick 6y ago

To me, the value proposition is still tabs. I have hundreds open at a time. Once or twice a month I will cleanup hundreds of windows and tabs. I've created habits to open up most everything in new tabs and new "projects" in new windows. I think I do this as a self-remedy for my ADHD, I am likely to allow an interruption to disrupt me but I do need to close the loop on whatever I was working on before an interruption. A window or set of open tabs is enough of a reminder to help me close the loop.

wheybags 6y ago
I use a vertical tab extension, and with that I regularly get to > 1k tabs.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Different strokes for different folks but what on earth do you people do on 1000 or even 100 tabs? I have a handful of sites I regularly go to and maybe 50 that I visit more than occasionally. They’re all bookmarked. When I’m done browsing I close the window. What state are you preserving keeping everything open in a tab?
  - wheybags 6y ago
    Often it will be documentation + stack overflow results. It can be handy to just leave that stuff open, because then you can find it easily. I do purge all tabs every now and again, but when there's no downside to leaving them open, they can build up for a month or so.
  - duke_core 6y ago
    What are those 50 sites you visit? I have like 4 which I visit on a daily basis (reddit/4chan/hckrnews/youtube)
  - unionpivo 6y ago
    For instance, i go to frontpage of HN and open in new tabs the stories and comments that interest me. Its not uncommon for 15 stories with 15 comments sections (thats 30 tabs already), Then I sometimes, open links from comments, or Wikipedia etc. Today i have more than 50 tabs open just starting from HN. Some stories when i read I close, but sometimes when I think i need to reread or save for later. After the week i usually have around 150+ tabs that i have left for later, I do the triage and I either save to my notes (like interesting, os dev articles, or rust or postgre optimization tips ...) or close. And thats just for HN.

skinkestek 6y ago

Which is just another reason why it is so awfully frustrating flr me that they won't fix their extension apis: I fully believe the extensions were really a huge part of Firefox' moat.

gh-throw 6y ago

Phoenix/Firebird was sold first through its incredible speed, compared to IE, plus popup blocking. The tabs were a nice bonus but the other two were the features that got all of us pushing the browser on every friend and relative who'd let us, even if they'd never use/understand tabbed browsing (some don't, to this day).

BeetleB 6y ago

Extensions were the other 10x thing with Firefox. Even now browsing the web without them is torture.