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This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-

This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space). I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing. I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...

franga2000 6y ago
That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.
dmos62 6y ago
Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
  - rattray 6y ago
    By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?
black_puppydog 6y ago
Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D
- rattray 6y ago
  I already use a separate keyboard for each hand when I'm at my desk (external magic keyboard for left hand, right hand on laptop, with the unused half of the external keyboard underneath my propped-up laptop). Works great! I don't usually do a lot of numerical stuff so rarely need the number pad... it'd just be nice to have a wider laptop keyboard when I'm roaming about (though tbf I'm not sure I'd want a laptop that large...)
alpaca128 6y ago
I agree you probably won't find this in a laptop ever, thanks to the standard keyboard design still being stuck with strange quirks, some of which were already outdated in the era of actual typewriters. That said if you're a numpad user a keyboard with centered numpad is pretty much the best concept other than the rabbit hole of custom ergonomic keyboard layouts. Either way you can only get into that realm with a lot of money unfortunately.
- aendruk 6y ago
  Go down the rabbit hole! :) You’re one text file away from plopping a numpad anywhere you want on the laptop’s keyboard. Right Alt + K is the center of a numpad on my XPS 13.
  - alpaca128 6y ago
    Oh don't worry, I'm already neck deep. Anything other than a 40% columnar staggered layout doesn't cut it anymore ;)
Shorel 6y ago
This is a great idea! It is also far more ergonomic than the current status quo.
astrea 6y ago
As someone with a disability who types with one hand, please for the love of God don't make this the standard
aasasd 6y ago
I've been vaguely pining for an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. In a typical display of mainstream keyboard makers being completely stuck on the same track, keyboards with an embedded trackpad have it on the right, despite laptops providing a ubiquitous example right in our faces and hands.
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  This 100%. Or a trackball. Look up the oddball keyboard or the ultimate hacking keyboard with its modules concept. I've been thinking of getting an ergodox and putting a trackpad in the middle..not sure if the windows Trackpads on Amazon will work on Linux though.
- rattray 6y ago
  Interesting... are there any keyboards with a trackball in a position easily accessible by the right thumb? (I haven't used a trackball myself but I've heard good things...) EDIT: hadn't seen the sibling commenter mention https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ which looks interesting, but perhaps too minimal for my taste (eg; where's the space button?) Ergodox, if you're reading this, an integrated trackpad/trackball solution would be pretty appealing!
  - aasasd 6y ago
    Afaik the ‘Ultimate Hacking Keyboard’ does that via its modules: http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_33001-2.jpg http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_330... Turns out it even has a touchpad, though its size is pitiful. Alas the whole keyboard reeks more of ‘mechanical + wacky layout‘ approach, with dubious ergonomics aside from the split halves. Otherwise, trackballs on keyboards don't seem too rare: image search turns up this Adesso board (https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg or better-ish https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20170616012200.jpg https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2017061601...), something named KeyTronic, etc.
samatman 6y ago
I've considered it! I use an ErgoDox, and there's just enough space in the middle for a numpad. But I often stick my phone there, and I just don't think I'd use it very often. Technically I can pop up a layer to turn the right side keys into a numpad (advantage of ortholinear) but I don't quite have the muscle memory to really take advantage of it so that's basically wasted. I've mulled over having a special lighting routine that lights up only those characters, in distinct colors, that would probably get me close enough. But it's just enough hassle that I never get around to it.
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  I've been thinking about buying a trackpad and an ergodox and putting the trackpad in the middle. Think it will fit? Think that's a good idea? Where do you put the mouse when using an ergodox?
  - Cu3PO42 6y ago
    I have a Moonlander and a Magic Trackpad. I tried putting it in the middle and you can make it fit, but I haven't found it to be very comfortable. My keyboard is slightly tilted, so moving my hand to the middle also necessitates vertical movement, so overall I prefer it off to the right side. For minor movements I just use a mouse mapped to the keyboard and I want to try a trackball on my right as well.
  - samatman 6y ago
    I use a trackball to the right of the righthand side A trackpad should fit, because you really want the halves parallel to your shoulders or just a bit tighter. Though as I think about the movements and gestures, you might find one of the halves interfering by being where your wrist naturally wants to be.
lifthrasiir 6y ago
Many Korean tripartite (세벌식) keyboard layouts have a virtual numpad accessible with shift. In a particular layout I'm using [1] it is HJKL:YUIOP for 0 through 9, so you can type 3.141592 with shift plus L.J:JYPK. Note that most symbols from the numpad can also be typed with shift, and full stop and comma can be specifically typed with or without shift. To me it is much better than the ordinary numpad (even at the middle) because it only takes two rows instead of three rows. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg
nine_k 6y ago
It would be a great step. Next step would be adding more keys under thumbs: backspace and arrows would be good candidates.
robotbikes 6y ago
You could always get this e-ink keyboard that is being crowd-funded the nemeio where you can I guess completely customize the keys https://www.nemeio.com/ https://www.nemeio.com/ - seems interesting and could allow you to easily explore alternative layouts but not sure how good the ergonomics of a keyboard like that would be but it seems interesting to me.
zurn 6y ago
Some laptops have this on the touchpad, with a printed grid of numpad keys there.

franga2000 6y ago

That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.

dmos62 6y ago

Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).

black_puppydog 6y ago
I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
- rattray 6y ago
  By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?

black_puppydog 6y ago

Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D

rattray 6y ago
I already use a separate keyboard for each hand when I'm at my desk (external magic keyboard for left hand, right hand on laptop, with the unused half of the external keyboard underneath my propped-up laptop). Works great! I don't usually do a lot of numerical stuff so rarely need the number pad... it'd just be nice to have a wider laptop keyboard when I'm roaming about (though tbf I'm not sure I'd want a laptop that large...)

alpaca128 6y ago

I agree you probably won't find this in a laptop ever, thanks to the standard keyboard design still being stuck with strange quirks, some of which were already outdated in the era of actual typewriters. That said if you're a numpad user a keyboard with centered numpad is pretty much the best concept other than the rabbit hole of custom ergonomic keyboard layouts. Either way you can only get into that realm with a lot of money unfortunately.

aendruk 6y ago
Go down the rabbit hole! :) You’re one text file away from plopping a numpad anywhere you want on the laptop’s keyboard. Right Alt + K is the center of a numpad on my XPS 13.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  Oh don't worry, I'm already neck deep. Anything other than a 40% columnar staggered layout doesn't cut it anymore ;)

Shorel 6y ago

This is a great idea! It is also far more ergonomic than the current status quo.

astrea 6y ago

As someone with a disability who types with one hand, please for the love of God don't make this the standard

aasasd 6y ago

I've been vaguely pining for an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. In a typical display of mainstream keyboard makers being completely stuck on the same track, keyboards with an embedded trackpad have it on the right, despite laptops providing a ubiquitous example right in our faces and hands.

nightowl_games 6y ago
This 100%. Or a trackball. Look up the oddball keyboard or the ultimate hacking keyboard with its modules concept. I've been thinking of getting an ergodox and putting a trackpad in the middle..not sure if the windows Trackpads on Amazon will work on Linux though.
rattray 6y ago
Interesting... are there any keyboards with a trackball in a position easily accessible by the right thumb? (I haven't used a trackball myself but I've heard good things...) EDIT: hadn't seen the sibling commenter mention https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ which looks interesting, but perhaps too minimal for my taste (eg; where's the space button?) Ergodox, if you're reading this, an integrated trackpad/trackball solution would be pretty appealing!
- aasasd 6y ago
  Afaik the ‘Ultimate Hacking Keyboard’ does that via its modules: http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_33001-2.jpg http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_330... Turns out it even has a touchpad, though its size is pitiful. Alas the whole keyboard reeks more of ‘mechanical + wacky layout‘ approach, with dubious ergonomics aside from the split halves. Otherwise, trackballs on keyboards don't seem too rare: image search turns up this Adesso board (https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg or better-ish https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20170616012200.jpg https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2017061601...), something named KeyTronic, etc.

samatman 6y ago

I've considered it! I use an ErgoDox, and there's just enough space in the middle for a numpad. But I often stick my phone there, and I just don't think I'd use it very often. Technically I can pop up a layer to turn the right side keys into a numpad (advantage of ortholinear) but I don't quite have the muscle memory to really take advantage of it so that's basically wasted. I've mulled over having a special lighting routine that lights up only those characters, in distinct colors, that would probably get me close enough. But it's just enough hassle that I never get around to it.

nightowl_games 6y ago
I've been thinking about buying a trackpad and an ergodox and putting the trackpad in the middle. Think it will fit? Think that's a good idea? Where do you put the mouse when using an ergodox?
- Cu3PO42 6y ago
  I have a Moonlander and a Magic Trackpad. I tried putting it in the middle and you can make it fit, but I haven't found it to be very comfortable. My keyboard is slightly tilted, so moving my hand to the middle also necessitates vertical movement, so overall I prefer it off to the right side. For minor movements I just use a mouse mapped to the keyboard and I want to try a trackball on my right as well.
- samatman 6y ago
  I use a trackball to the right of the righthand side A trackpad should fit, because you really want the halves parallel to your shoulders or just a bit tighter. Though as I think about the movements and gestures, you might find one of the halves interfering by being where your wrist naturally wants to be.

lifthrasiir 6y ago

Many Korean tripartite (세벌식) keyboard layouts have a virtual numpad accessible with shift. In a particular layout I'm using [1] it is HJKL:YUIOP for 0 through 9, so you can type 3.141592 with shift plus L.J:JYPK. Note that most symbols from the numpad can also be typed with shift, and full stop and comma can be specifically typed with or without shift. To me it is much better than the ordinary numpad (even at the middle) because it only takes two rows instead of three rows. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg

nine_k 6y ago

It would be a great step. Next step would be adding more keys under thumbs: backspace and arrows would be good candidates.

robotbikes 6y ago

You could always get this e-ink keyboard that is being crowd-funded the nemeio where you can I guess completely customize the keys https://www.nemeio.com/ https://www.nemeio.com/ - seems interesting and could allow you to easily explore alternative layouts but not sure how good the ergonomics of a keyboard like that would be but it seems interesting to me.

zurn 6y ago

Some laptops have this on the touchpad, with a printed grid of numpad keys there.