8 ms·

I don't understand why many workstation-class laptops DONT have a num pads. It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

echelon 6y ago
Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?
- urthor 6y ago
  Excel users yes.
- i80and 6y ago
  Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.
  - spijdar 6y ago
    I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops. However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games. Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...
    - detritus 6y ago
      I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level. Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand. I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.
  - lumenwrites 6y ago
    This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will. (because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.) Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.
    - krsdcbl 6y ago
      Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts
- coldtea 6y ago
  To some professions, they do. This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...
- detritus 6y ago
  Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.
gmac 6y ago
Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers. Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.
  - azangru 6y ago
    > Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it. Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)
rattray 6y ago
This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space). I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing. I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...
- franga2000 6y ago
  That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.
- dmos62 6y ago
  Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
    - rattray 6y ago
      By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D
scns 6y ago
The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.
JediPig 6y ago
go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL. Until you experience it, you will not have the experience. Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.
rbanffy 6y ago
> It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one. I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.
rtpg 6y ago
I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.
fnord77 6y ago
even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.

echelon 6y ago

Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?

urthor 6y ago
Excel users yes.
i80and 6y ago
Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.
- spijdar 6y ago
  I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops. However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games. Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...
  - detritus 6y ago
    I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level. Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand. I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.
- lumenwrites 6y ago
  This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will. (because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.) Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.
  - krsdcbl 6y ago
    Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts
coldtea 6y ago
To some professions, they do. This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...
detritus 6y ago
Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.

gmac 6y ago

Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?

throwaway744678 6y ago
Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?
ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers. Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.
- azangru 6y ago
  > Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it. Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)

rattray 6y ago

This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space). I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing. I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...

franga2000 6y ago
That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.
dmos62 6y ago
Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo
  - rattray 6y ago
    By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?
black_puppydog 6y ago
Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D

scns 6y ago

The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.

JediPig 6y ago

go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL. Until you experience it, you will not have the experience. Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.

rbanffy 6y ago

> It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one. I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.

rtpg 6y ago

I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.

fnord77 6y ago

even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.