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On the other hand, I spend 0% of my time managing iOS devices for my parents and am constantly bombarded with issues from my in-laws with Android phones. I agre

On the other hand, I spend 0% of my time managing iOS devices for my parents and am constantly bombarded with issues from my in-laws with Android phones. I agree that some of Apple's behavior is monopolistic and has some unfortunate, possibly unforeseen consequences, but the end result is pretty nice for the consumers who are willing to accept the compromise.

Jyaif 6y ago
Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing iOS devices has something to do with apps not being able to use their own payment system?
- random5634 6y ago
  This is one of the major features yes. On iOS apps are totally prohibited from their own payment flows in app / on platform - it's completely banned. This is extremely noticeable in a couple of areas. Subscription - you get an email from apple BEFORE renewal, and can easily cancel subscriptions - all located in one place - no phone calls or other stupidity (try cancelling a myheritage account by contrast!) They have integrated monitoring so if you delete an app, it will ask if you also want to cancel out the subscription for the app. The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- I mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. Especially with elderly relatives or younger folks or just folks who don't want to be hassled with this game playing, these features are what make using apple so nice and help drive the premium users are willing to pay (which can be ridiculous!). One tip - if you have elderly folks, scan their bank statement / cc statement 1x per year, you usually can save them thousands on auto-renewing stuff they no longer use.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    >The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- I mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. I really wish government or credit card companies would impose rules on merchants that prohibit this kind of behaviour. It's very easy to get bitten by subscription scams, even from companies that appear legitimate. The lack of regulation on this matter just leaves Apple with justification to act as a payment gatekeeper.
    - random5634 6y ago
      Apple has focused pretty heavily on the user experience, developers be damned. I know this is not popular on HN (ie, anti-trust claims to allow devs to abuse users the way they can elsewhere). They haven't been stupid / annoying about it. You contrast their controls with those outside ios. The russian site I visit with the cookie notice, they can still track me and what am I going to do about it? So the cookie notice is both annoying an ineffective against bad actors. On iOS, I decline a permission, and it's done.
      - spideymans 6y ago
        >ie, anti-trust claims to allow devs to abuse users the way they can elsewhere I can't lie. When I see companies like Match Group complaining that iOS policies prevent them from surreptitiously locking their "customers" into subscriptions[0], I can't help but chuckle. This is precisely why I bought an iPhone. 0: https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-after-missing-revenue-forecasts/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-af...
        random5634 6y ago
        Ya - if you look at list of complainers - folks running loot boxes, lock in uncancelable subscriptions etc, crazy privacy violators (Facebook). there is so much money in this though I don’t see how they don’t get political folks to force apples hand - joined by a surprising number of HN devs - the focus on what is best for user is long gone
      - Daho0n 6y ago
        It's exactly as ineffective in iOS. You are just comparing apples to rocketships (iPhone app Vs russian site in browser). Besides, top story on HN says Tiktok will track iOS users, circumventing apple's attempt to block it. So you decline and feel nice and fluffy but it didn't do much. It's worse on Android but there people with knowledge can at least fix it. In iOS you can't even install a proper adblocker. If you want the privacy you to be as effective as you say Apple will need to control every site in your browser like they do with apps.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jsperson 6y ago
  >Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing iOS devices has something to do with apps not being able to use their own payment system? Indirectly sure - it pays for the app store and all of the curation that goes on there. Admittedly there's a crazy healthy profit for Apple, but I believe you are arguing principles so the amount shouldn't be relevant.
anonymou2 6y ago
I suppose it is not so bad to be a serf. Your master feeds you and you don't have to worry about getting food.
MikeUt 6y ago
> compromise This is not an inherent compromise. iPhones could be just as safe and issue-free if they were rootable, just as cars don't need hoods welded shut to prevent their owners from messing with the engine. If you find the compromise acceptable, simply don't root your phone.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  To extend this analogy further, people share, load and modify ECU firmware dumps for their cars, too.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  A car analogy that works! Good job, this is a rare sight indeed :)
forgotmypw17 6y ago
I followed this road until the device was locked. Make sure you have a backup of stuff like photos and emails which is not Apple-managed.
Barrin92 6y ago
I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed to be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the wrong apps. Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? It's like the reverse 'but think of the children', and people keep using it who would scoff at it in every other context, just to engage in this constant Apple apologia that has infected tech people who should know better but don't because they've grown up with macbooks with shitty stickers on it. The sort of brand influence that Apple exercises and the stuff it gets away with is truly astonishing.
- 67868018 6y ago
  > Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? Yeah I really wish we could... how many human hours have been wasted cleaning up infected garbage on friends and family desktop computers?
- ehutch79 6y ago
  there are absolutely controls you can turn on for macs that will do that. I have locked down employees computers because they couldn't be trusted.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    That’s the point! There are no similar controls in iPhone, you just get the locked experience by default.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    I'm always curious about this attitude. Why did you employ them if you felt you couldn't trust them?
    - Tushon 6y ago
      People being good at anything else (let's say, accounting) is not correlated with safe/smart computer use habits. If you can prevent a lot of turmoil by not letting them install arbitrary programs and still keep them happy and working well on their main role, why get rid of an otherwise good employee?
alerighi 6y ago
Not true, it depends on what one is used to. My father for example always used Android, now he got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use, to the point that it asks me even trivial things. It's a myth that iOS is more simple to use than Android, there are things that are more complicated.
- asciimov 6y ago
  Biggest headache that Apple has solved is updates. They are very clear if a phone is still supported or not. The following is a conversation I had with a relative, while trying to troubleshoot their phone. Q: "Why doesn't my Bank App work?" Me: [after many steps]"Because you need to update your OS" Q: "How do I do that?" Me: [many steps later] "Sorry you can't update your OS. You will need a new phone." Q: "But this phone is only a year old." Me: "The phone had been out for over a year before you got it. The [manufacturer] stopped updating it. You have to get a new phone to use your Banking app." Q: "But new phones are so expensive, my phone is still plenty fast, and the battery lasts all day, why do I need to get a new phone?" Me: "The manufacturer stops making updates to make you buy a new phone from them."
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    Curious which phone this was because 1 year sounds really short upgrade lifetime.
- lone-commenter 6y ago
  > My father for example always used Android. [...] > [H]e got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use [...] I guess that's precisely because he is used to Android, not because iOS is more difficult.
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    Oh there are plenty of things that are way more difficult or impossible to do on iphone. An incomplete list: 1. Run a desktop window manager when connected to TV/monitor. 2. Share files using wifi direct or bluetooth. 3. Download torrents. 4. Switch between front and back cameras while recording a video. 5. Play fortnite. 6. Copy files to/from a flash drive. 7. Cast screen to TV. 8. Copy whatsapp chats from older phone.
vagrantJin 6y ago
This is an argument. My elderly parents are stupid argument. for why you should buy iOS. No- its not signalling at all. iOS is just as confusing as Android. Its a matter of which one you use first or regularly. Just as Linux is confusing to non-linux users. Also. Android works on the dodgiest mobile hardware available to mankind. Something not a lot of HN users seem to know - from tractors in farms to research equipment in the arctic. I dont know about space, but if we are going to use a modern OS on space craft - I'm willing to bet it will be an android fork.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  iOS UX is so bad that to clear big attachments off the phone you have to individually select each item in a huge, multipage check list. There's not even a select-all option.
cjohansson 6y ago
I spend a lot of time fixing iOS devices to relatives and friends. I think what you are referring to is just a myth created by the PR department at Apple
curt15 6y ago
How many of those issues from your in-laws are due to installing programs from outside Google Play?
Terretta 6y ago
It’s just consoles vs. PC playing out in the consumer handset market and beige boxes are gradually losing ground. This freaks builders out but shouldn’t, PCs are still a thing.

Jyaif 6y ago

Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing iOS devices has something to do with apps not being able to use their own payment system?

random5634 6y ago
This is one of the major features yes. On iOS apps are totally prohibited from their own payment flows in app / on platform - it's completely banned. This is extremely noticeable in a couple of areas. Subscription - you get an email from apple BEFORE renewal, and can easily cancel subscriptions - all located in one place - no phone calls or other stupidity (try cancelling a myheritage account by contrast!) They have integrated monitoring so if you delete an app, it will ask if you also want to cancel out the subscription for the app. The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- I mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. Especially with elderly relatives or younger folks or just folks who don't want to be hassled with this game playing, these features are what make using apple so nice and help drive the premium users are willing to pay (which can be ridiculous!). One tip - if you have elderly folks, scan their bank statement / cc statement 1x per year, you usually can save them thousands on auto-renewing stuff they no longer use.
- spideymans 6y ago
  >The prompting for purchase and trials is VERY explicit. So for example, NY Times has a banner (not on ios) saying signup for $1/week. Great, you do it. Then you find out that in a month it switches to something like $15/month- I mean, the scams and tricks are endless off app store. I really wish government or credit card companies would impose rules on merchants that prohibit this kind of behaviour. It's very easy to get bitten by subscription scams, even from companies that appear legitimate. The lack of regulation on this matter just leaves Apple with justification to act as a payment gatekeeper.
  - random5634 6y ago
    Apple has focused pretty heavily on the user experience, developers be damned. I know this is not popular on HN (ie, anti-trust claims to allow devs to abuse users the way they can elsewhere). They haven't been stupid / annoying about it. You contrast their controls with those outside ios. The russian site I visit with the cookie notice, they can still track me and what am I going to do about it? So the cookie notice is both annoying an ineffective against bad actors. On iOS, I decline a permission, and it's done.
    - spideymans 6y ago
      >ie, anti-trust claims to allow devs to abuse users the way they can elsewhere I can't lie. When I see companies like Match Group complaining that iOS policies prevent them from surreptitiously locking their "customers" into subscriptions[0], I can't help but chuckle. This is precisely why I bought an iPhone. 0: https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-after-missing-revenue-forecasts/ https://nypost.com/2019/11/06/tinder-owners-stock-tumbles-af...
      - random5634 6y ago
        Ya - if you look at list of complainers - folks running loot boxes, lock in uncancelable subscriptions etc, crazy privacy violators (Facebook). there is so much money in this though I don’t see how they don’t get political folks to force apples hand - joined by a surprising number of HN devs - the focus on what is best for user is long gone
    - Daho0n 6y ago
      It's exactly as ineffective in iOS. You are just comparing apples to rocketships (iPhone app Vs russian site in browser). Besides, top story on HN says Tiktok will track iOS users, circumventing apple's attempt to block it. So you decline and feel nice and fluffy but it didn't do much. It's worse on Android but there people with knowledge can at least fix it. In iOS you can't even install a proper adblocker. If you want the privacy you to be as effective as you say Apple will need to control every site in your browser like they do with apps.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jsperson 6y ago
>Do you think that you spending 0% of your time managing iOS devices has something to do with apps not being able to use their own payment system? Indirectly sure - it pays for the app store and all of the curation that goes on there. Admittedly there's a crazy healthy profit for Apple, but I believe you are arguing principles so the amount shouldn't be relevant.

anonymou2 6y ago

I suppose it is not so bad to be a serf. Your master feeds you and you don't have to worry about getting food.

MikeUt 6y ago

> compromise This is not an inherent compromise. iPhones could be just as safe and issue-free if they were rootable, just as cars don't need hoods welded shut to prevent their owners from messing with the engine. If you find the compromise acceptable, simply don't root your phone.

heavyset_go 6y ago
To extend this analogy further, people share, load and modify ECU firmware dumps for their cars, too.
Daho0n 6y ago
A car analogy that works! Good job, this is a rare sight indeed :)

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I followed this road until the device was locked. Make sure you have a backup of stuff like photos and emails which is not Apple-managed.

Barrin92 6y ago

I'm always amazed that in the land of the brave and free butchering general purpose computing machines is supposed to be justified by the fact grandma doesn't install the wrong apps. Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? It's like the reverse 'but think of the children', and people keep using it who would scoff at it in every other context, just to engage in this constant Apple apologia that has infected tech people who should know better but don't because they've grown up with macbooks with shitty stickers on it. The sort of brand influence that Apple exercises and the stuff it gets away with is truly astonishing.

67868018 6y ago
> Funny is this argument always exclusively pops up when it comes to Apple smartphones. Are we supposed to lock every desktop down too because mom and pop installed a wrong toolbar? Yeah I really wish we could... how many human hours have been wasted cleaning up infected garbage on friends and family desktop computers?
ehutch79 6y ago
there are absolutely controls you can turn on for macs that will do that. I have locked down employees computers because they couldn't be trusted.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  That’s the point! There are no similar controls in iPhone, you just get the locked experience by default.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I'm always curious about this attitude. Why did you employ them if you felt you couldn't trust them?
  - Tushon 6y ago
    People being good at anything else (let's say, accounting) is not correlated with safe/smart computer use habits. If you can prevent a lot of turmoil by not letting them install arbitrary programs and still keep them happy and working well on their main role, why get rid of an otherwise good employee?

alerighi 6y ago

Not true, it depends on what one is used to. My father for example always used Android, now he got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use, to the point that it asks me even trivial things. It's a myth that iOS is more simple to use than Android, there are things that are more complicated.

asciimov 6y ago
Biggest headache that Apple has solved is updates. They are very clear if a phone is still supported or not. The following is a conversation I had with a relative, while trying to troubleshoot their phone. Q: "Why doesn't my Bank App work?" Me: [after many steps]"Because you need to update your OS" Q: "How do I do that?" Me: [many steps later] "Sorry you can't update your OS. You will need a new phone." Q: "But this phone is only a year old." Me: "The phone had been out for over a year before you got it. The [manufacturer] stopped updating it. You have to get a new phone to use your Banking app." Q: "But new phones are so expensive, my phone is still plenty fast, and the battery lasts all day, why do I need to get a new phone?" Me: "The manufacturer stops making updates to make you buy a new phone from them."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  Curious which phone this was because 1 year sounds really short upgrade lifetime.
lone-commenter 6y ago
> My father for example always used Android. [...] > [H]e got an iPhone and he find it more difficult to use [...] I guess that's precisely because he is used to Android, not because iOS is more difficult.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  Oh there are plenty of things that are way more difficult or impossible to do on iphone. An incomplete list: 1. Run a desktop window manager when connected to TV/monitor. 2. Share files using wifi direct or bluetooth. 3. Download torrents. 4. Switch between front and back cameras while recording a video. 5. Play fortnite. 6. Copy files to/from a flash drive. 7. Cast screen to TV. 8. Copy whatsapp chats from older phone.

vagrantJin 6y ago

This is an argument. My elderly parents are stupid argument. for why you should buy iOS. No- its not signalling at all. iOS is just as confusing as Android. Its a matter of which one you use first or regularly. Just as Linux is confusing to non-linux users. Also. Android works on the dodgiest mobile hardware available to mankind. Something not a lot of HN users seem to know - from tractors in farms to research equipment in the arctic. I dont know about space, but if we are going to use a modern OS on space craft - I'm willing to bet it will be an android fork.

wayneftw 6y ago
iOS UX is so bad that to clear big attachments off the phone you have to individually select each item in a huge, multipage check list. There's not even a select-all option.

cjohansson 6y ago

I spend a lot of time fixing iOS devices to relatives and friends. I think what you are referring to is just a myth created by the PR department at Apple

curt15 6y ago

How many of those issues from your in-laws are due to installing programs from outside Google Play?

Terretta 6y ago

It’s just consoles vs. PC playing out in the consumer handset market and beige boxes are gradually losing ground. This freaks builders out but shouldn’t, PCs are still a thing.