4 ms·

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dea

by bzzzt 6y ago

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dead register by replacing it anymore... Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements.

ghaff 6y ago
"Right to repair" doesn't mean that everything has to be actually repairable down to replacing things at the lowest level of component. It means making the same tools and information available that an authorized repair center has access to. But if the standard of repair is swapping out an entire device or PCB there's no requirement to go above and beyond that. A lot of people seem to confuse "right of repair" with modularity/ease of repair.
- ehnto 6y ago
  I think the new EU right to repair laws require appliances to be repairable for up to ten years, this article at least seems to suggest that the intention is for a level of ease of repair especially in regards to fasteners and fittings: > Under the new EU rules, manufacturers will have to ensure parts are available for up to a decade, though some will only be provided to professional repair companies to ensure they are installed correctly. > New devices will also have to come with repair manuals and be made in such a way that they can be dismantled using conventional tools when they really can't be fixed anymore, to improve recycling. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/eu-right-repair-technology-decade-b1809408.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/eu...
setr 6y ago
Right to repair doesn’t mean that everything must be repairable; it means that manufacturers can’t block you from installing a replacement part (eg by requiring a key from CORP) That is, if you could have repaired it, YOU could have repaired it
- bzzzt 6y ago
  If those manufacturers want to control the quality you're getting from your appliance you're giving them no other option than to integratie everything with superglue and make all repairs impossible...
the_af 6y ago
Pirsig couldn't fix or understand every component of his motorcycle, but he advocated having some degree of control over the components he did understand and knew how to fix or jury-rig. His anecdote about using tin from beer cans to jury-rig a simple fix -- and the wounded reaction to it by his friend John -- is enlightening. It's not all or nothing.
- ehnto 6y ago
  Pragmatism and the application of it is an art all of it's own. A pragmatist may change their own clutch, but get a professional to do their wiring. It's about addressing the situation and making a reasonable choice.
  - the_af 6y ago
    Oh, fully agreed! And I think Pirsig would have agreed, too. Regardless, you need some level of understanding to make the call. A particularly funny anecdote from the book, if you read it, is when he decides some fix is too delicate for him and takes his motorcycle to a repair shop. Right from the start he gets a bad vibe -- the mechanics are all kids listening to loud music and seemingly not paying attention to what they are doing. This is later confirmed: they return his bike without fixing the problem, then try to fix it more seriously but forget to screw some vital parts, leading to additional damage, and in the end they completely fail to fix the problem. What's important is that right from the start Pirsig got the feeling something was off about this repair shop, and he could sense this because he know enough about the components of his bike (for example, he guessed they had forgotten to screw something down simply because it's easy to miss and he knew this screw was there). If, like his friend John, you decide "I have something else to spend my time on, better leave this to the professionals", it might seem superficially a pragmatic choice but it could also make you fail to notice the repairmen who are bad at their jobs, until it's too late and your piece of machinery fails catastrophically.
    - ehnto 6y ago
      Absolutely, I have a car that sits in a specialist category these days, and there is exactly one shop I'll take it to in this city because they're experienced in all the idiosyncrasies of the platform. But I only know that because of how much time I've spent on the car myself. My friend who has a similar car but doesn't work on it got fleeced for two years at his chosen shop, they didn't even do some of the work they billed for. Now we've got him at a specialist and it's been cheaper and better quality work. It's not that my friend is dumb either, as with John, he was making what seemed like the smart choice with the knowledge he had, given the level of effort he was willing to put into learning about his car. He has other priorities, so perhaps the pragmatic choice for him given they're a niche car, would have been getting a recommendation from the car community about where to go.
asdff 6y ago
At the same time, a durable phone is no different to one where you could replace the parts that are simply soldered together in the "durable" phone.
simion314 6y ago
>Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements. Your argument might be fair but is ignoring the 99% of the complaints: - DRM - no schematics - forbidding selling of spare parts - not sharing repair tools Maybe we should put an Apple exception so we don't trigger the fanboys then we get the right the repair for all the other electronics , fix 90% of the problem and we takle the Apple fanboys with a different law. Imagine this scenario, you have a tool like a tractor (but could be a washing machine,printer). One day it stops working and a red light turns on. In this case the problem was something a child could fix, something got stuck in the tool and it could not open/move, you remove the thing and all is fine now. But the tool will not work until a genius will you send it to a genius to use a secret tool to read the error code, then he would notice that all is fine, press the "Reset status" button on his tool and give you a big receipt. I imagine the Apple car, you will have a tire issue but you only an Apple genius will be able to replace the tire and the fanboys will defend the DRM locked tires with the same bad excuse "the DRM reduces tire stealing, it is not expensive for me personally to bring the car to Apple store, there are so many stores here in my city, don't buy the Apple car if you are poor , and if someone gifts you an old one throw it away, there are no parts anyway and fixing an old one would cost more then a new one )
- ls65536 6y ago
  No need to imagine...This sort of scenario already happened to someone I know with their Apple device: They had just wiped their iPhone in an attempt to clean it up and restore the software to factory condition, and afterwards it required an OS software update for some reason (okay, sure), so this was done. After this update, some kind of "activation" was required (why?) before the device was usable at all for anything meaningful. This activation step failed, showing no particular reason for failure (only along the lines of "your iPhone couldn't be activated, call support"). Over the phone support wasn't helpful in giving any further details, so ultimately the device was brought to Apple where they used some diagnostic tools and determined that some hardware component (possibly cellular antenna?) was malfunctioning, and most likely this was preventing the activation from continuing (again, why?). The Apple tech said they could do nothing to repair the device (no hardware fix, no software fix), and as a "fix" offered only some sort of insultingly low-value buy-back option instead. There are so many problems with this scenario: 1. Why was "activation" required to use the device at all at this point? The owner just wanted to use it to take some photos, listen to music, watch videos, and do some simple web browsing...No Apple services required, so why the forced requirement to activate the device? 2. Why was no useful information presented to the user about why the activation step failed, so they could at least attempt to troubleshoot for themselves (or with the help of someone of their choosing)? 3. Why does an otherwise unnecessary hardware sub-component (from the point of view of the device "owner" in the context of their usage) misbehaving prevent the ability to activate or otherwise use the device for some valid purpose? I should mention that the device was out of warranty by this point, so it was not expected that any hardware repair would be at anyone's expense but the owner's, but this entire situation to me just looked like a pointless software-induced device disabling, for no good reason. After witnessing such a situation, I can't help but wonder how much of this hostility and disrespect towards their customers is just so Apple can drive more new device sales, or what else is going on, but it certainly gave me a lot to think about where this particular company (and the industry in general) seems to be headed.
jorvi 6y ago
No, but Intel should offer replacement parts for a reasonable time for what can be replaced. I don't know if RAM slots or a BIOS ROM chip are actually resolderable, but if they are then those parts should be offered for example.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
>"electronics have become more reliable" Is that actually true? I have a 20 year old TV and a projector that still work, and I would be very surprised if my current one will last that long.
- fomine3 6y ago
  I expect simple LCD + LED lasts longer than average CRT.

by bzzzt 6y ago

ghaff 6y ago

"Right to repair" doesn't mean that everything has to be actually repairable down to replacing things at the lowest level of component. It means making the same tools and information available that an authorized repair center has access to. But if the standard of repair is swapping out an entire device or PCB there's no requirement to go above and beyond that. A lot of people seem to confuse "right of repair" with modularity/ease of repair.

ehnto 6y ago
I think the new EU right to repair laws require appliances to be repairable for up to ten years, this article at least seems to suggest that the intention is for a level of ease of repair especially in regards to fasteners and fittings: > Under the new EU rules, manufacturers will have to ensure parts are available for up to a decade, though some will only be provided to professional repair companies to ensure they are installed correctly. > New devices will also have to come with repair manuals and be made in such a way that they can be dismantled using conventional tools when they really can't be fixed anymore, to improve recycling. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/eu-right-repair-technology-decade-b1809408.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/eu...

setr 6y ago

Right to repair doesn’t mean that everything must be repairable; it means that manufacturers can’t block you from installing a replacement part (eg by requiring a key from CORP) That is, if you could have repaired it, YOU could have repaired it

bzzzt 6y ago
If those manufacturers want to control the quality you're getting from your appliance you're giving them no other option than to integratie everything with superglue and make all repairs impossible...

the_af 6y ago

Pirsig couldn't fix or understand every component of his motorcycle, but he advocated having some degree of control over the components he did understand and knew how to fix or jury-rig. His anecdote about using tin from beer cans to jury-rig a simple fix -- and the wounded reaction to it by his friend John -- is enlightening. It's not all or nothing.

ehnto 6y ago
Pragmatism and the application of it is an art all of it's own. A pragmatist may change their own clutch, but get a professional to do their wiring. It's about addressing the situation and making a reasonable choice.
- the_af 6y ago
  Oh, fully agreed! And I think Pirsig would have agreed, too. Regardless, you need some level of understanding to make the call. A particularly funny anecdote from the book, if you read it, is when he decides some fix is too delicate for him and takes his motorcycle to a repair shop. Right from the start he gets a bad vibe -- the mechanics are all kids listening to loud music and seemingly not paying attention to what they are doing. This is later confirmed: they return his bike without fixing the problem, then try to fix it more seriously but forget to screw some vital parts, leading to additional damage, and in the end they completely fail to fix the problem. What's important is that right from the start Pirsig got the feeling something was off about this repair shop, and he could sense this because he know enough about the components of his bike (for example, he guessed they had forgotten to screw something down simply because it's easy to miss and he knew this screw was there). If, like his friend John, you decide "I have something else to spend my time on, better leave this to the professionals", it might seem superficially a pragmatic choice but it could also make you fail to notice the repairmen who are bad at their jobs, until it's too late and your piece of machinery fails catastrophically.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    Absolutely, I have a car that sits in a specialist category these days, and there is exactly one shop I'll take it to in this city because they're experienced in all the idiosyncrasies of the platform. But I only know that because of how much time I've spent on the car myself. My friend who has a similar car but doesn't work on it got fleeced for two years at his chosen shop, they didn't even do some of the work they billed for. Now we've got him at a specialist and it's been cheaper and better quality work. It's not that my friend is dumb either, as with John, he was making what seemed like the smart choice with the knowledge he had, given the level of effort he was willing to put into learning about his car. He has other priorities, so perhaps the pragmatic choice for him given they're a niche car, would have been getting a recommendation from the car community about where to go.

asdff 6y ago

At the same time, a durable phone is no different to one where you could replace the parts that are simply soldered together in the "durable" phone.

simion314 6y ago

>Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements. Your argument might be fair but is ignoring the 99% of the complaints: - DRM - no schematics - forbidding selling of spare parts - not sharing repair tools Maybe we should put an Apple exception so we don't trigger the fanboys then we get the right the repair for all the other electronics , fix 90% of the problem and we takle the Apple fanboys with a different law. Imagine this scenario, you have a tool like a tractor (but could be a washing machine,printer). One day it stops working and a red light turns on. In this case the problem was something a child could fix, something got stuck in the tool and it could not open/move, you remove the thing and all is fine now. But the tool will not work until a genius will you send it to a genius to use a secret tool to read the error code, then he would notice that all is fine, press the "Reset status" button on his tool and give you a big receipt. I imagine the Apple car, you will have a tire issue but you only an Apple genius will be able to replace the tire and the fanboys will defend the DRM locked tires with the same bad excuse "the DRM reduces tire stealing, it is not expensive for me personally to bring the car to Apple store, there are so many stores here in my city, don't buy the Apple car if you are poor , and if someone gifts you an old one throw it away, there are no parts anyway and fixing an old one would cost more then a new one )

ls65536 6y ago
No need to imagine...This sort of scenario already happened to someone I know with their Apple device: They had just wiped their iPhone in an attempt to clean it up and restore the software to factory condition, and afterwards it required an OS software update for some reason (okay, sure), so this was done. After this update, some kind of "activation" was required (why?) before the device was usable at all for anything meaningful. This activation step failed, showing no particular reason for failure (only along the lines of "your iPhone couldn't be activated, call support"). Over the phone support wasn't helpful in giving any further details, so ultimately the device was brought to Apple where they used some diagnostic tools and determined that some hardware component (possibly cellular antenna?) was malfunctioning, and most likely this was preventing the activation from continuing (again, why?). The Apple tech said they could do nothing to repair the device (no hardware fix, no software fix), and as a "fix" offered only some sort of insultingly low-value buy-back option instead. There are so many problems with this scenario: 1. Why was "activation" required to use the device at all at this point? The owner just wanted to use it to take some photos, listen to music, watch videos, and do some simple web browsing...No Apple services required, so why the forced requirement to activate the device? 2. Why was no useful information presented to the user about why the activation step failed, so they could at least attempt to troubleshoot for themselves (or with the help of someone of their choosing)? 3. Why does an otherwise unnecessary hardware sub-component (from the point of view of the device "owner" in the context of their usage) misbehaving prevent the ability to activate or otherwise use the device for some valid purpose? I should mention that the device was out of warranty by this point, so it was not expected that any hardware repair would be at anyone's expense but the owner's, but this entire situation to me just looked like a pointless software-induced device disabling, for no good reason. After witnessing such a situation, I can't help but wonder how much of this hostility and disrespect towards their customers is just so Apple can drive more new device sales, or what else is going on, but it certainly gave me a lot to think about where this particular company (and the industry in general) seems to be headed.

jorvi 6y ago

No, but Intel should offer replacement parts for a reasonable time for what can be replaced. I don't know if RAM slots or a BIOS ROM chip are actually resolderable, but if they are then those parts should be offered for example.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

>"electronics have become more reliable" Is that actually true? I have a 20 year old TV and a projector that still work, and I would be very surprised if my current one will last that long.

fomine3 6y ago
I expect simple LCD + LED lasts longer than average CRT.