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Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery

by 1-6 6y ago

Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack-first-picture/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I'm kinda hoping that there will be legislation or standardization for battery packs. As it stands, when that battery pack is end-of-life, the whole car will be scrapped because it's not financially viable to have a new one installed. But if it's standardized, if it's EOL the battery pack can be replaced with either a new, better battery (e.g. solid state) or a refurbished / secondhand battery. And the EOL battery pack handed in for refurbishment, which hopefully significantly reduces cost. Then again, I'm reading that the average car is scrapped after about 14 years. Might be high-end Model S-es may live longer, but if we get more cheap EVs, refurbishing the battery won't be viable no matter how cheap they make it.
- fortran77 6y ago
  According to many sources, for example this CNET article, cars are one of the best-recycled products around, with "86%" (according to this article) of the material in a car recycled to use again: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-parts-end-up-in-the-trash/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-part...
  - xmodem 6y ago
    That sort of metric is counting by weight, which I'm not sure can be directly compared to other products. Google says the average compact car weights 1324 kg, the un-recyclable porition of that is equivalant to one hell of a lot of iPhones.
- bzzzt 6y ago
  If the battery costs 75% of the car does it make sense to try to refurbish it? There are old model S cars on the road with half a million miles on and still usable range. After that kind of mileage I expect the rest of the car to be pretty worn too...
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, brakes, brake regeneration, transmission (yes, Tesla has a transmission, just a simple one), engine, and battery. All of these can suffer failure and require replacing. Even if they are unlikely to wear out in normal circumstances, people get into fender benders, and there are always exceptional circumstances. Given the huge number of parts and miles of wiring, the average owner can expect exceptional failures on a few parts. All modern cars are extremely complex, even if the drivetrain is simplified.
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    No oil changes, water pump, fuel pump, valves, spark plugs, radiator, alternator, starter, ignition system, oxygen sensors, etc. The amount of parts that go into a functioning internal combustion engine is quite staggering. The unfortunate part of this is that ICE cars are effectively trashed once the engine seizes. Replacing the engine is almost always more expensive than replacing the car, and many things can still wear out once the engine is replaced. If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke[1]. 1. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-maintain-an-electric-vehicle https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-ma...
    - rsj_hn 6y ago
      > If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke So then you should have no problem buying an out of warranty Tesla - it should be inexpensive to maintain, right? This is the difference between theory and practice. Even though ICE engines are more complex (true) they are nevertheless well understood, the manufacturing process has been refined, and there is a robust aftermarket and network of independent dealers so that costs are controlled. One thousand dollar door handle replacement on your Tesla (https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-functioning https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-fu...) is going to make up for a lot of oil changes. The issue with PEV is that these are new components and the manufacturers have locked down the supply chain so you have to go to the manufacturer. That's how you get these insane repair costs and why right to repair and a robust third party market is so important. Each time someone suggests how much cheaper to maintain the EVs are, ask them why no EV manufacturer is offering a 20 year 200,000 mile warranty. If the costs are really 90% lower, then this should be easy to do. And Tesla should easily be able to set aside only 10% of what other automakers set aside for warranty reserves. Yet we see that "Business news publication Barron’s calculated that Tesla's third quarter additions to the warranty reserve were 2.7% of the company's car sales – slightly higher than the auto industry average of 2.5%. That’s despite the fact that electric engines have fewer parts that are subject to wear than internal combustion engines, making them potentially cheaper to maintain." https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-profits/ https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-p... But again, there is a difference between theory and practice, between a well understood, mature system and a new system. If you don't believe me, then go ahead and buy that out of warranty car with lots of new tech and see how it works out for you. I'll wait.
jackcviers3 6y ago
This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by 1-6 6y ago

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

I'm kinda hoping that there will be legislation or standardization for battery packs. As it stands, when that battery pack is end-of-life, the whole car will be scrapped because it's not financially viable to have a new one installed. But if it's standardized, if it's EOL the battery pack can be replaced with either a new, better battery (e.g. solid state) or a refurbished / secondhand battery. And the EOL battery pack handed in for refurbishment, which hopefully significantly reduces cost. Then again, I'm reading that the average car is scrapped after about 14 years. Might be high-end Model S-es may live longer, but if we get more cheap EVs, refurbishing the battery won't be viable no matter how cheap they make it.

fortran77 6y ago
According to many sources, for example this CNET article, cars are one of the best-recycled products around, with "86%" (according to this article) of the material in a car recycled to use again: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-parts-end-up-in-the-trash/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/recyclable-cars-what-part...
- xmodem 6y ago
  That sort of metric is counting by weight, which I'm not sure can be directly compared to other products. Google says the average compact car weights 1324 kg, the un-recyclable porition of that is equivalant to one hell of a lot of iPhones.
bzzzt 6y ago
If the battery costs 75% of the car does it make sense to try to refurbish it? There are old model S cars on the road with half a million miles on and still usable range. After that kind of mileage I expect the rest of the car to be pretty worn too...

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.

rsj_hn 6y ago
There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, brakes, brake regeneration, transmission (yes, Tesla has a transmission, just a simple one), engine, and battery. All of these can suffer failure and require replacing. Even if they are unlikely to wear out in normal circumstances, people get into fender benders, and there are always exceptional circumstances. Given the huge number of parts and miles of wiring, the average owner can expect exceptional failures on a few parts. All modern cars are extremely complex, even if the drivetrain is simplified.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  No oil changes, water pump, fuel pump, valves, spark plugs, radiator, alternator, starter, ignition system, oxygen sensors, etc. The amount of parts that go into a functioning internal combustion engine is quite staggering. The unfortunate part of this is that ICE cars are effectively trashed once the engine seizes. Replacing the engine is almost always more expensive than replacing the car, and many things can still wear out once the engine is replaced. If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke[1]. 1. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-maintain-an-electric-vehicle https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-ma...
  - rsj_hn 6y ago
    > If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke So then you should have no problem buying an out of warranty Tesla - it should be inexpensive to maintain, right? This is the difference between theory and practice. Even though ICE engines are more complex (true) they are nevertheless well understood, the manufacturing process has been refined, and there is a robust aftermarket and network of independent dealers so that costs are controlled. One thousand dollar door handle replacement on your Tesla (https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-functioning https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/90061/door-handle-not-fu...) is going to make up for a lot of oil changes. The issue with PEV is that these are new components and the manufacturers have locked down the supply chain so you have to go to the manufacturer. That's how you get these insane repair costs and why right to repair and a robust third party market is so important. Each time someone suggests how much cheaper to maintain the EVs are, ask them why no EV manufacturer is offering a 20 year 200,000 mile warranty. If the costs are really 90% lower, then this should be easy to do. And Tesla should easily be able to set aside only 10% of what other automakers set aside for warranty reserves. Yet we see that "Business news publication Barron’s calculated that Tesla's third quarter additions to the warranty reserve were 2.7% of the company's car sales – slightly higher than the auto industry average of 2.5%. That’s despite the fact that electric engines have fewer parts that are subject to wear than internal combustion engines, making them potentially cheaper to maintain." https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-profits/ https://fortune.com/2020/03/04/tesla-warranties-accounting-p... But again, there is a difference between theory and practice, between a well understood, mature system and a new system. If you don't believe me, then go ahead and buy that out of warranty car with lots of new tech and see how it works out for you. I'll wait.

jackcviers3 6y ago

This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]