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A possible solution is allowing studded tires and making snow tires mandatory at certain times of the year (Quebec does this). Studded tires would make driving

A possible solution is allowing studded tires and making snow tires mandatory at certain times of the year (Quebec does this). Studded tires would make driving a lot safer in icy conditions and snow tires are an incredible improvement over regular tires in wintry conditions (tradeoff is they tear up the roads). Winter Tire tech has vastly improved over the years and most manufacturers have added a feature for Icy conditions (sip their tires - https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes https://www.discounttire.com/learn/tire-sipes ). Salt may be cheap but there are environmental costs. Recently this news article was published about how Toronto rivers are seeing high levels of salt. If it's happening in Toronto, I'm sure it's happening all over the mid west and north east. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1.4515132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/road-salt-gta-water-1...

Hayvok 6y ago
I think what might make this tough for midwestern states is that the snow doesn't stick around all winter. It's not unheard of to have 4-5 big snows that melt relatively quickly and most of the winter you're just dealing with cold weather. If you won't have a reliable snow pack you can guarantee you'll be driving on for three or four months it's hard to justify swapping out for snow tires or chains.
- 3131s 6y ago
  What will make it tough is that our roads already get destroyed every winter without the help of spiked tires. In MN the entire summer is filled with road construction already. I wouldn't be that thrilled about switching my tires 2x every year either.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    Get the winter set mounted on a second set of steel rims. It's a 45 minute job with the scissor jack that came with the car, less with anything better. It's a nice excuse to spend a little time outside on a pleasant spring or fall afternoon.
    - destitude 6y ago
      This is exactly what I do. Just have your winter tires on another set of rims and use the jack that came with the car. I do have a impact driver to make getting the lugs on and off a lot faster though.
- greedo 6y ago
  Exactly. My area gets snow 3-4 times per year, usually less than a foot. It is often gone within a couple of days. Our worst storm this year (roughly 15" of snow), the roads were cleared within a day or two. No way is it economical to buy snow tires; and snow tires damage roadways.
  - destitude 6y ago
    Snow tires do not damage roadways. Only studded tires damage roadways which are illegal in many states.
mywittyname 6y ago
Studded tires destroy roads and are serious overkill, even for northern MI. (Not sure about CA). Honestly, newer winter tires are amazing. I DD a newer Camaro with proper extreme weather tires. It's not fabulous in the handling department, but it will stop and go mostly straight. But put those same tires on any modern family vehicle and you'll be all set. Even roads covered with a solid sheet of ice would be no problem in a FWD Camry.
- dev_tty01 6y ago
  > Even roads covered with a solid sheet of ice would be no problem in a FWD Camry. I was with you till that last sentence. Have you ever actually tried to drive (or walk) on a solid sheet of ice? I was involved in a freak situation where the temperature plummeted suddenly after a few hours of mixed ice/water/slush precipitation. The roads and any other concrete flat surface were coated with smooth ice. We sat near a curve and watched all the 4WD vehicles come along and slide off the road. Wherever people were in town that evening they had to stay there until morning. True sheet ice cannot be handled by any combo of FWD or 4WD without perhaps studs or chains. Even then it is sketchy. Fortunately, that kind of ice is fairly rare on a large scale. However, patches of ice are common and that creates many problems since drivers may not recognize it.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    Yeah, I have, every year it's a problem because I live in a neighborhood where sump pumps dump onto the road, so ice dams forming and coating the entire road in smooth ice is common. Modern extreme winter tires are designed for traction on ice. They are impregnated with this gritty stuff (made of walnuts shells, I think) which grips on ice. The grip is not great, but I can reliably get a RWD sports car up a modest grade in them. Note that I'm not talking about the Mud and Snow tires that come on most vehicles. These have an indicator that is a snowflake in a mountain and usually can't be used above 60 degrees. Here's a link to some examples: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=PSIS&sortValue=14&lowToHigh=Y&openCat=Dry https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.j...
- 6y ago
mminer237 6y ago
Forcing everyone to spend hundreds of dollars each on studded or snow tires, to change them on and off, and to store them until next year would be prohibitively expensive for the the handful of days each year when the roads are actually snowy in the Midwest.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  Yes car owners are rapidly hostile to actually directly paying the costs of their car use in the US.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I was amused when a Bernie supporter contacted me with the argument that Medicare 4 all would lower my car insurance rates. "Why is it a good thing to transfer costs away from drivers?" was my pretty immediate response. Of course my 'libertarian' leaning state rep supports the same changes to vehicle insurance, except the costs would be dumped on Medicaid most likely.
- hourislate 6y ago
  In my situation, I would leave the Snows on from Nov-March and then spend the 20 minutes putting on my all seasons for spring summer and part of fall(both sets had their own rims). It was all a wash since the all seasons lasted about twice as long since I wasn't using them all year round. Insurance companies also give you a small discount if you have winter tires during winter.
- destitude 6y ago
  Instead we push the cost off to being paid by everyone via taxes even if they don't drive.
lstodd 6y ago
> making snow tires mandatory Why is this even necessary at all? I'd like to see anyone who's got to drive a month or three on compacted snow or snow slush and not willing to switch to winter tires. The car becomes uncontrollable at like 32 kph / 20 mph. Back there in Finland they use crushed granite and it works just fine without corroding everything in sight and also killing plant life.
- bluGill 6y ago
  I lived in MN for most of my life and I never switched to snow tires. Some people I knew did, and I believe them when they say snow tires are better. However in the end traction just isn't an issue, nobody drives fast when it is icy and at slow speeds I did just fine.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Tread depth/design is king for the "not quite liquid, not quite solid" slush that most snow commuting is done in anyway. All that stuff has to go somewhere, preferably somewhere other than between your tread blocks and the pavement.
  - destitude 6y ago
    The chemical composition of snow tires is completely different compared to an all season tires. All season tires get hard whereas snow tires stay soft. That is why you can't keep snow tires on all year is because they will wear really fast in hot temps because the rubber is soft to begin with.
ars 6y ago
You can't really require studded tires in a place that can have 2 weeks of lots of snow, followed by 3 weeks of no snow and repeat. You'd have to repave the entire city each year. And you can't expect motorists to keep adding and removing the studs as the weather changes. Studded tires are only realistic in a place where you need them for an entire season. Snow tires on the other hand can help a TON. But not everyone has room to store them in the off season.
cinntaile 6y ago
Once you consider the environmental and health costs of studded tyres I am not sure if salt is all that bad. It's usually combined with small stones that increase road grip as well. Studded tyres grind the road down to small particles that contribute to the fine dust problem in cities and this also requires new layers of asphalt fairly often.

Hayvok 6y ago

I think what might make this tough for midwestern states is that the snow doesn't stick around all winter. It's not unheard of to have 4-5 big snows that melt relatively quickly and most of the winter you're just dealing with cold weather. If you won't have a reliable snow pack you can guarantee you'll be driving on for three or four months it's hard to justify swapping out for snow tires or chains.

3131s 6y ago
What will make it tough is that our roads already get destroyed every winter without the help of spiked tires. In MN the entire summer is filled with road construction already. I wouldn't be that thrilled about switching my tires 2x every year either.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  Get the winter set mounted on a second set of steel rims. It's a 45 minute job with the scissor jack that came with the car, less with anything better. It's a nice excuse to spend a little time outside on a pleasant spring or fall afternoon.
  - destitude 6y ago
    This is exactly what I do. Just have your winter tires on another set of rims and use the jack that came with the car. I do have a impact driver to make getting the lugs on and off a lot faster though.
greedo 6y ago
Exactly. My area gets snow 3-4 times per year, usually less than a foot. It is often gone within a couple of days. Our worst storm this year (roughly 15" of snow), the roads were cleared within a day or two. No way is it economical to buy snow tires; and snow tires damage roadways.
- destitude 6y ago
  Snow tires do not damage roadways. Only studded tires damage roadways which are illegal in many states.

mywittyname 6y ago

Studded tires destroy roads and are serious overkill, even for northern MI. (Not sure about CA). Honestly, newer winter tires are amazing. I DD a newer Camaro with proper extreme weather tires. It's not fabulous in the handling department, but it will stop and go mostly straight. But put those same tires on any modern family vehicle and you'll be all set. Even roads covered with a solid sheet of ice would be no problem in a FWD Camry.

dev_tty01 6y ago
> Even roads covered with a solid sheet of ice would be no problem in a FWD Camry. I was with you till that last sentence. Have you ever actually tried to drive (or walk) on a solid sheet of ice? I was involved in a freak situation where the temperature plummeted suddenly after a few hours of mixed ice/water/slush precipitation. The roads and any other concrete flat surface were coated with smooth ice. We sat near a curve and watched all the 4WD vehicles come along and slide off the road. Wherever people were in town that evening they had to stay there until morning. True sheet ice cannot be handled by any combo of FWD or 4WD without perhaps studs or chains. Even then it is sketchy. Fortunately, that kind of ice is fairly rare on a large scale. However, patches of ice are common and that creates many problems since drivers may not recognize it.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  Yeah, I have, every year it's a problem because I live in a neighborhood where sump pumps dump onto the road, so ice dams forming and coating the entire road in smooth ice is common. Modern extreme winter tires are designed for traction on ice. They are impregnated with this gritty stuff (made of walnuts shells, I think) which grips on ice. The grip is not great, but I can reliably get a RWD sports car up a modest grade in them. Note that I'm not talking about the Mud and Snow tires that come on most vehicles. These have an indicator that is a snowflake in a mountain and usually can't be used above 60 degrees. Here's a link to some examples: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=PSIS&sortValue=14&lowToHigh=Y&openCat=Dry https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.j...
6y ago

mminer237 6y ago

Forcing everyone to spend hundreds of dollars each on studded or snow tires, to change them on and off, and to store them until next year would be prohibitively expensive for the the handful of days each year when the roads are actually snowy in the Midwest.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
Yes car owners are rapidly hostile to actually directly paying the costs of their car use in the US.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  I was amused when a Bernie supporter contacted me with the argument that Medicare 4 all would lower my car insurance rates. "Why is it a good thing to transfer costs away from drivers?" was my pretty immediate response. Of course my 'libertarian' leaning state rep supports the same changes to vehicle insurance, except the costs would be dumped on Medicaid most likely.
hourislate 6y ago
In my situation, I would leave the Snows on from Nov-March and then spend the 20 minutes putting on my all seasons for spring summer and part of fall(both sets had their own rims). It was all a wash since the all seasons lasted about twice as long since I wasn't using them all year round. Insurance companies also give you a small discount if you have winter tires during winter.
destitude 6y ago
Instead we push the cost off to being paid by everyone via taxes even if they don't drive.

lstodd 6y ago

> making snow tires mandatory Why is this even necessary at all? I'd like to see anyone who's got to drive a month or three on compacted snow or snow slush and not willing to switch to winter tires. The car becomes uncontrollable at like 32 kph / 20 mph. Back there in Finland they use crushed granite and it works just fine without corroding everything in sight and also killing plant life.

bluGill 6y ago
I lived in MN for most of my life and I never switched to snow tires. Some people I knew did, and I believe them when they say snow tires are better. However in the end traction just isn't an issue, nobody drives fast when it is icy and at slow speeds I did just fine.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Tread depth/design is king for the "not quite liquid, not quite solid" slush that most snow commuting is done in anyway. All that stuff has to go somewhere, preferably somewhere other than between your tread blocks and the pavement.
- destitude 6y ago
  The chemical composition of snow tires is completely different compared to an all season tires. All season tires get hard whereas snow tires stay soft. That is why you can't keep snow tires on all year is because they will wear really fast in hot temps because the rubber is soft to begin with.

ars 6y ago

You can't really require studded tires in a place that can have 2 weeks of lots of snow, followed by 3 weeks of no snow and repeat. You'd have to repave the entire city each year. And you can't expect motorists to keep adding and removing the studs as the weather changes. Studded tires are only realistic in a place where you need them for an entire season. Snow tires on the other hand can help a TON. But not everyone has room to store them in the off season.

cinntaile 6y ago

Once you consider the environmental and health costs of studded tyres I am not sure if salt is all that bad. It's usually combined with small stones that increase road grip as well. Studded tyres grind the road down to small particles that contribute to the fine dust problem in cities and this also requires new layers of asphalt fairly often.